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  Reply # 1511725 12-Mar-2016 08:10
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Hammerer:

 

tdgeek:

 

Show me where I said geo unblocking is illegal?

 

 

I couldn't find it when I searched.

 

But I did find when tdgeek and Rikkitic found common ground in this thread. Since then we've gone around again:

 

tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Why can't local distributors maintain two or more catalogs side by side? There would be the Netflix NZ catalog, but also the US one for an extra fee. I don't see why it always has to be an all or nothing deal. Also, I don't see why the overseas catalog would necessarily have to be sold by any particular distributor. Maybe it could be offered to the highest bidder, with the only restriction being that the bidder has to be operating within the boundaries of the country it is bidding from. So Netflix, along with other distributors, would bid on the overseas catalog rights and Sky might end up with them while Netflix continues to operate the NZ catalog. Other overseas content producers, like BBC, could do the same, with the local distributor acting as an agent. 

 

For me, and I think for a lot of people, the issue is not getting content for free, but getting freedom of choice. The things I want to watch just are not available here, at any price. Yet I know they are available elsewhere. This is what motivates geo-unblocking in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is the key.

 

 

 

Take Netflix's own content. They can sell it here under Netflix NZ, or sell it to a distributor here. It's here, thats all that matters

 

Other content would be bought. Maybe by Netflix NZ, Lightbox, Neon. It would be here.

 

Depending on your tastes, you might have one or more of the services, but all the content that is available globally, is avaliable here

 

Would this keep everyone happy? All the contect is here and geoblock bypassing is not needed

 

 

 

 

 

Cos I didn't!

 

Yes we do agree that globalisation is what we all want. No doubt the prices would rise as what we want from NF or whoever, thats not here, is due to another bought the rights to play here on another service, or its not here yet. Globalisation scenario could be these.

 

1. There is a monopoly, where NF has everything. Same rights fees but central to one provider = higher price. Cant see that. If anything it might remove the NF's and replace them with the studios doing it direct.

 

2. Rights are sold, as they are now, on the proviso, that in every country, every item of content is available on any one provider. We would have to subscribe to multiple providers to get everything, or some to get most. Less cost per provider, but more providers, so more cost overall. 

 

From what I gather, NF doesnt want regional rights, they want global. But some agreements may expire tomorrow, others are 5 years, so it will happen, over time.

 

Where we don't agree is grabbing content that is not available as we don't have the rights and thereby denying the studies payments. Paying NF and not the studio. But as you say it goes around in circles like every other debate. 

 

As this is transitional, there will be holes everywhere as its not possible to say, we are going global at midnight on the 18th. Far too complex and with agreements locked in for a year or years, for that to happen. 


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  Reply # 1511733 12-Mar-2016 08:25
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Sam91:

 

Even if we agree that it's fine to access to US Netflix from NZ, the following question still remains. Do you think it's ok to pay for only one Netflix subscription fee and then access content from 30 different Netflix catalogues? I feel it's a different argument altogether.

 

 

Thats my point. We pay NF US and that sub funds the content they bought the rights for, sorted. We Pay NF US and watch NF US and the sub we pay funds NF but doesnt fund the studios. Its only a moral issue, and that we are watching content that we are not funding the creators. Morally thats unfair. Rights wise that a spider web of companies. Creators, providers, advertisers, infrastructure that for some providers is very physical and large. Subscribers. The aim is to make money, and that applies to EVERYONE. Buying rights helps retain subscribers. The model isn't archaic at all, its supply and demand, its business, and its not greedy. Its not affected by SVOD, but that SVOD can be freely swept around the world, we think it is. Non SVOD can also be swept around the world, so why haven't we asked for globalisation 10 years ago? Food for thought

 

As an aside, apologies to Rikkitic, our discussion did get a tickle unwieldy from both sides at times. 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1511741 12-Mar-2016 08:59
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tdgeek:

 

As an aside, apologies to Rikkitic, our discussion did get a tickle unwieldy from both sides at times. 

 

 

That can happen in any vigorous debate. This is an issue I feel genuinely passionate about. As far as I am concerned, any ethical and economic arguments come second to the question of choice. I do not accept the 'right' of content distributors to deny me something that they make readily available elsewhere solely on the basis of arbitrary geographic discrimination. I see this as being akin to censorship, especially as I happen to live in a small country devoted to placing monopolistic commercial self-interest above the right of citizens to seek information where they choose. This government does not represent me, and it is pushing through legislation designed to restrict my freedom to make my own choices. I will vociferously oppose that in any way I can.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1511934 12-Mar-2016 12:32
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tdgeek:

 

Thats my point. We pay NF US and that sub funds the content they bought the rights for, sorted. We Pay NF US and watch NF US and the sub we pay funds NF but doesnt fund the studios. Its only a moral issue, and that we are watching content that we are not funding the creators. Morally thats unfair. Rights wise that a spider web of companies. Creators, providers, advertisers, infrastructure that for some providers is very physical and large. Subscribers. The aim is to make money, and that applies to EVERYONE. Buying rights helps retain subscribers. The model isn't archaic at all, its supply and demand, its business, and its not greedy. Its not affected by SVOD, but that SVOD can be freely swept around the world, we think it is. Non SVOD can also be swept around the world, so why haven't we asked for globalisation 10 years ago? Food for thought

 

As an aside, apologies to Rikkitic, our discussion did get a tickle unwieldy from both sides at times. 

 

 

That argument doesn't really hold water when a vast proportion of us have a US billing address, pay in US dollars, and access US catalogue content. I don't see that as a moral issue at all - I see it as morally acceptable. I don't accept that I should be forced to instead use Foxtel/Neon/Sky or whoever your local pay TV provider is - I certainly don't accept that morally I should be required to subscribe to four different services just to access the same content. Your argument is akin to saying that morally you should not be allowed to order books off Amazon because Whitcoulls has paid to ship them in and I reject that absolutely.

 

The model is absolutely archaic, and people have been asking for globalisation for more than a decade. One of the first things to come out of DVDs was ways to strip the region coding!

 

Incidentally, there are various ways around that argument that infrastructure is expensive. Ever read the Netflix engineering blog? They have managed to seriously reduce their bankwidth and infrastructure costs through direct peering, colocating appliances in ISP datacentres, transcoding "in the cloud" and various other things. This isn't Netflix exclusive, any provider could take these measures to reduce their costs.

 

 


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  Reply # 1511960 12-Mar-2016 13:34
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

We Pay NF US and watch NF US and the sub we pay funds NF but doesnt fund the studios.

 

 

 

 

tdgeek I agree with you on many of your points, the content creators absolutely should be paid for their work, but how do we actually know that the funds don't go to those studios and only goes to NF? Is there any evidence of this?


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  Reply # 1511974 12-Mar-2016 13:58
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petes117:

tdgeek:


 


We Pay NF US and watch NF US and the sub we pay funds NF but doesnt fund the studios.



 


tdgeek I agree with you on many of your points, the content creators absolutely should be paid for their work, but how do we actually know that the funds don't go to those studios and only goes to NF? Is there any evidence of this?



Rights payments are not paid per view, they are a one time paymeet for rights. So when a series is on Netflix US they use those subs as revenue to fund the rights for the US. that series may also be on Sky or LB or TV 3 or NF if we bypass NZ Our sub is going to Netflix. If we watch via Sky or LB or Tv 3 our subs go to them, who use that revenue to fund the rights they also paid. Because NF viability of the series is based on US subs, and that works for them, your sub goes to NF as a cost free bonus.. The NZ provider gets no sub from you. Theoretically, and this is actually what happens on practice,
Is say they everyone in NZ geo unblocked. NF pays the right for US anyway. They also pay rights for NZ. But there is no revenue in NZ to fund those rights payments.

Kyanars book analogy. If you buy a book from Whitcoulls, the manufacturer gets paid. If you buy the book from Amazon, the manufacturer gets paid.

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  Reply # 1511987 12-Mar-2016 14:22
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Yes I get that if we geo-unblock the NZ provider gets no revenue from us, but if our geo-unblocked subs are counted as US subs then that revenue still goes to the studio just like any other US sub and doesn't just stop at Netflix right?  I just don't see any evidence of the 'cost free bonus' scenario


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  Reply # 1511995 12-Mar-2016 14:39
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petes117:

 

 

 

Yes I get that if we geo-unblock the NZ provider gets no revenue from us, but if our geo-unblocked subs are counted as US subs then that revenue still goes to the studio just like any other US sub and doesn't just stop at Netflix right?  I just don't see any evidence of the 'cost free bonus' scenario

 

 

Netflix pay a flat fee for the US region regardless of whether 1 person watches or 100 million watch it.  If they get an additional 30,000 NZ's watching it (the estimated geo-dodgers) then thats 30,000 fee paying subs at $12/mth that they didnt budget for.  Drops straight to the bottom line - especially of those 30,000 wouldnt subscribe to NFNZ on the basis of its reduced rights library.


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  Reply # 1512002 12-Mar-2016 14:59
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ockel:

 

petes117:

 

 

 

Yes I get that if we geo-unblock the NZ provider gets no revenue from us, but if our geo-unblocked subs are counted as US subs then that revenue still goes to the studio just like any other US sub and doesn't just stop at Netflix right?  I just don't see any evidence of the 'cost free bonus' scenario

 

 

Netflix pay a flat fee for the US region regardless of whether 1 person watches or 100 million watch it.  If they get an additional 30,000 NZ's watching it (the estimated geo-dodgers) then thats 30,000 fee paying subs at $12/mth that they didnt budget for.  Drops straight to the bottom line - especially of those 30,000 wouldnt subscribe to NFNZ on the basis of its reduced rights library.

 

 

It doesn't drop straight to the Netflix bottom line. They have said that their target is to achieve margin and any extra goes to more content. It is difficult to show this at present because they are not profitable with their current spending cutting heavily into their margin target, i.e. they are in expansion mode so they are building up their catalogue which means they're spending more than they would in long-term steady state. They don't aim to break even for another year or two.

 

I guess that what you mean is that for any content on fixed-price contracts, which are the vast majority, there is no additional return to the content provider. But that doesn't mean Netflix pocket the difference as net profit. For content providers in total there is a greater return because Netflix buys more content.

 

 


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  Reply # 1512003 12-Mar-2016 15:00
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ockel:

 

 

 

Netflix pay a flat fee for the US region regardless of whether 1 person watches or 100 million watch it.  If they get an additional 30,000 NZ's watching it (the estimated geo-dodgers) then thats 30,000 fee paying subs at $12/mth that they didnt budget for.  Drops straight to the bottom line - especially of those 30,000 wouldnt subscribe to NFNZ on the basis of its reduced rights library.

 

 

 

 

This is assuming they haven't budgeted in geo-unblockers. And why wouldn't they? If 30,000 extra people are watching a show they'll know it's valuable and pay more to secure the rights.

 

I agree if that revenue from geo-unblocking subscribers goes entirely into Netflix's bottom line that's not a good thing, but there's just too many questions that no one here, including myself, can answer definitively


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  Reply # 1512008 12-Mar-2016 15:10
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What about the people that are paying in NZ and then watching US/UK nf?


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  Reply # 1512012 12-Mar-2016 15:30
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tdgeek: They also pay rights for NZ. But there is no revenue in NZ to fund those rights payments.

 

Except that there isn't any Netflix NZ anyway: the Netflix NZ company is a holding company with 2 directors - neither of whom is based in New Zealand - and 1 shareholder, which is Netflix Inc. incorporated in the Netherlands. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that nearly all the other national Netflixes have the same structure. All of which is a roundabout way of saying that all the revenue from everyone goes back into the same big pot, regardless of where they paid it.

 

Your argument that Sky or Lightbox or Getflix or TVNZ might be willing to pay less for local rights if there are fewer local subscribers has some merit but I don't not subscribe to Sky only because I have US Netflix. They also only let me watch what they're currently broadcasting, they cost far more, and even after paying that far higher price they still make me watch ads. I don't have an antenna that can receive FTA - satellite or terrestrial - so I can't watch it even if I want to. I tried Getflix once but cancelled before the trial period was up because it was pathetic. Lightbox has no movies.

 

 





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  Reply # 1512014 12-Mar-2016 15:36
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SaltyNZ: tried Getflix once but cancelled before the trial period was up because it was pathetic. Lightbox has no movies.

 

 

I'm guessing you mean Quickflix? Getflix is a geo-unblocker :p


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  Reply # 1512027 12-Mar-2016 15:46
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Hammerer:

ockel:


petes117:


 


Yes I get that if we geo-unblock the NZ provider gets no revenue from us, but if our geo-unblocked subs are counted as US subs then that revenue still goes to the studio just like any other US sub and doesn't just stop at Netflix right?  I just don't see any evidence of the 'cost free bonus' scenario



Netflix pay a flat fee for the US region regardless of whether 1 person watches or 100 million watch it.  If they get an additional 30,000 NZ's watching it (the estimated geo-dodgers) then thats 30,000 fee paying subs at $12/mth that they didnt budget for.  Drops straight to the bottom line - especially of those 30,000 wouldnt subscribe to NFNZ on the basis of its reduced rights library.



It doesn't drop straight to the Netflix bottom line. They have said that their target is to achieve margin and any extra goes to more content. It is difficult to show this at present because they are not profitable with their current spending cutting heavily into their margin target, i.e. they are in expansion mode so they are building up their catalogue which means they're spending more than they would in long-term steady state. They don't aim to break even for another year or two.


I guess that what you mean is that for any content on fixed-price contracts, which are the vast majority, there is no additional return to the content provider. But that doesn't mean Netflix pocket the difference as net profit. For content providers in total there is a greater return because Netflix buys more content.


 



It does to to NF US bottom line as a bonus, but your are right as they do what few businesses do now, plough back. And I commend teM for that. I was going to mention that but though that might derail the tread.

For rights that Netflix nz does not that have, others do, but they are bypassed. Once all this has evolutioned out, we will have FTA tv, Sky and various SVOD. We will subscribe to one, or two, or many. Bottom line is we will pay. Which we don't now

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  Reply # 1512032 12-Mar-2016 15:48
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blakamin:

SaltyNZ: tried Getflix once but cancelled before the trial period was up because it was pathetic. Lightbox has no movies.



I'm guessing you mean Quickflix? Getflix is a geo-unblocker :p



Hee, yep. Your in Oz now, well done !

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