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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 1598799 26-Jul-2016 10:26
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@tdgeek when editing quotes it seems you're wrapping your own comments within a quote block.





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  Reply # 1598802 26-Jul-2016 10:30
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Talkiet:

 

 

 

[Looks at multiple stacks of servers around the country being endlessly upgraded in order to keep Netflix working well in Spark, looks back at the comment above about there being no extra cost to deliver to NZ and tries to understand how those two things fit together.. Fails... goes back to planning for yet another round of CDN upgrades]

 

 

 

Cheers - N

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but you'd be paying for that no matter what 'version' of Netflix people watched. And the customers who are watching Netflix are also paying you for internet access. You might as well complain you have to pay for routers because of Netflix. It's true, but it's also irrelevant to the regional price difference conversation.





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  Reply # 1598803 26-Jul-2016 10:30
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networkn:

 

 

 

Perhaps if you JUST said that without all the accusations of skullduggery and conspiracy and evil doings by big corporations, your message would get through clearer. Not just you, but lots of people in this thread.

 

In an ideal world your idea sounds fantastic, the reality of providing it, just isn't that simple. 

 

You know the old adage you put 2 people in a room communication is simple, add a third and world war 3 gets started? Imagine it on a scale where every show has 20 people associated, all with an opinion, lots with a financial stake, now work out the number of shows etc...

 

Keeping everyone happy is a bit of a chore.

 

It looks simple from the outside, reality is different. It's like how Obama campaigned on closing Gitmo, criticised Bush for having it, and within 4 weeks of being in office, was forced to say "actually we can't close it, I didn't have all the information, and now I do, I understand why it's there". Similar concept.

 

I'd ALSO like what you want, honestly, sounds amazing, but I also realize it's NOT my content, so I am left with no choice but to consume it as the rights holders see fit.

 

Spending months arguing here, is 100% ineffective to your cause, I'd recommend sending a well thought out (ie SANS the conspiracy and accusation tone) communication to the rights holders.

 

 

Again, we are not all that far apart, and thanks for the suggestion. It is not a bad idea. I am not one of those people who think everything is a conspiracy, but it is certainly true that I don't have a high opinion of big business in general. They have just been caught out too many times. I remember reading some articles in which several multinational corporations were given psychological assessments as if they were people and they all came out at the top of the scale for psychopathy. I have also worked in the business world as a communications freelancer so have witnessed this kind of behaviour for myself. Most corporations are not actively evil, but they are certainly amoral and they exist only to serve the interests of their shareholders. This does not always lead to the best behaviour. 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1598805 26-Jul-2016 10:32
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Rikkitic:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

 

 

Its not your product. Its not your choice if you are allowed to watch it. All of those other particpants could be removed, treat media likle a socialist state, everyone gets everything. So you pay more for NF, plus you pay what the rights purchasers have paid, you also pay what the advertisers pay. And there is only media provider as there is no means to run a business with competition when everyone has the same content. You pay all the costs that will work. Then its too expensive, then there is no comp[etition as there is only one provider as everything is everywhere. let alone the lack of initiative to create cool content as its valueless

 

Buit it all comes down to I want everything for free or near free, and stating that you dont want it for free is an excuse, you want it for far less than what it costs. 

 

 

Yes, it is their product but the market belongs to the consumer. You can be as anal as you like about your 'product' but if no-one buys it you won't be in business long. As long as torrents are an option, people can go elsewhere if things are made too difficult. Imagine what that will do to the cost.

 

In any case, I do not see the logic of your argument. If current economics work for America, then they would also work for America+NZ. Media do not have to be socialised. Competition does not have to be eliminated. Just make the market bigger. Geographical segmentation does not make sense, except to the greedy. There is sufficient profit to be had from a single world market to fund all that cool content. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your beef should not be with Netflix, Sky or TVNZ, it should be with the rights owners they set the conditions for the sale of their product. If the owners have it wrong they will sell badly and go into administration. The owners set the conditions of sale of their product not you.

If you want it differently then you take it to the likes of Disney and negotiate. 





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1598818 26-Jul-2016 10:36
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SaltyNZ:

 

Talkiet:

 

 

 

[Looks at multiple stacks of servers around the country being endlessly upgraded in order to keep Netflix working well in Spark, looks back at the comment above about there being no extra cost to deliver to NZ and tries to understand how those two things fit together.. Fails... goes back to planning for yet another round of CDN upgrades]

 

 

 

Cheers - N

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but you'd be paying for that no matter what 'version' of Netflix people watched. And the customers who are watching Netflix are also paying you for internet access. You might as well complain you have to pay for routers because of Netflix. It's true, but it's also irrelevant to the regional price difference conversation.

 

 

 

 

Not true for reasons of [large network] and [efficient delivery of service on large networks].

 

And no, I can't (won't) go into details.

 

 

 

Cheers - N

 

 


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  Reply # 1598821 26-Jul-2016 10:38
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Rikkitic:

 

They have just been caught out too many times. I remember reading some articles in which several multinational corporations were given psychological assessments as if they were people and they all came out at the top of the scale for psychopathy. I have also worked in the business world as a communications freelancer so have witnessed this kind of behaviour for myself. Most corporations are not actively evil, but they are certainly amoral and they exist only to serve the interests of their shareholders. This does not always lead to the best behaviour. 

 

 

Again, please quit with this kind of stuff. These simple, bland assertions about corporates being sociopaths and how acting in the interests of shareholders is terrible blah blah and what you think of businesses are terribly off-topic. If you had the money to put at risk and your company's management's decisions can affect the livelihood and well-being of tens of thousands of staff and the shareholders, you would want the company to look after itself too as a shareholder. Hardly any corporate only thinks about its shareholders but of course they are, generally speaking, top of the tree. You've produced no (and will never be able to produce) any other viable alternative models.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1598822 26-Jul-2016 10:38
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

Your beef should not be with Netflix, Sky or TVNZ, it should be with the rights owners they set the conditions for the sale of their product. It the owners have it wrong they will sell badly and go into administration. The owners set the conditions of sale of their product not you.

If you want it differently then you take it to the likes of Disney and negotiate. 

 

 

 

 

Yes and no. You're right - it's the rights owners who set the conditions. However, I don't have any contractual relationship with the rights owners. Disney does not give two s***s what I think. They will only care what the distributors - who are going to pay them $M or $B figures, or, more importantly, not - think.

 

Hence: Netflix makes it impossible for me use their service they way I prefer to use it, I cancel Netflix. I don't really want to hurt Netflix. But if I hurt them, they'll pass the hurt on. That's the only way it works.





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  Reply # 1598829 26-Jul-2016 10:45
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dejadeadnz:

 

Rikkitic:

 

They have just been caught out too many times. I remember reading some articles in which several multinational corporations were given psychological assessments as if they were people and they all came out at the top of the scale for psychopathy. I have also worked in the business world as a communications freelancer so have witnessed this kind of behaviour for myself. Most corporations are not actively evil, but they are certainly amoral and they exist only to serve the interests of their shareholders. This does not always lead to the best behaviour. 

 

 

Again, please quit with this kind of stuff. These simple, bland assertions about corporates being sociopaths and how acting in the interests of shareholders is terrible blah blah and what you think of businesses are terribly off-topic. If you had the money to put at risk and your company's management's decisions can affect the livelihood and well-being of tens of thousands of staff and the shareholders, you would want the company to look after itself too as a shareholder. Hardly any corporate only thinks about its shareholders but of course they are, generally speaking, top of the tree. You've produced no (and will never be able to produce) any other viable alternative models.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree about this. I can understand @rikkitic position here, but it's cliche and often untrue, certainly far less true than is being painted. 

 

@rikkitic you are free to think and say what you like about everything, it's a free world, but as someone who has been in the corporate world, and owned a business for nearly 20 years, employed staff etc, I think you need to reconsider your position here. Until you have run a business, you can't easily understand what it's like or the motivations. I think you need to let go of your prejudices. I used to have a similar opinion to you, until I started my own business. I realized what a crappy employee I was once I was an employer, and compared to a lot of people I was actually pretty good. 


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  Reply # 1598831 26-Jul-2016 10:46
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SaltyNZ:

 

 

 

Yes and no. You're right - it's the rights owners who set the conditions. However, I don't have any contractual relationship with the rights owners. Disney does not give two s***s what I think. They will only care what the distributors - who are going to pay them $M or $B figures, or, more importantly, not - think.

 

Hence: Netflix makes it impossible for me use their service they way I prefer to use it, I cancel Netflix. I don't really want to hurt Netflix. But if I hurt them, they'll pass the hurt on. That's the only way it works.

 

 

 

 

Your position is perfectly logical and entirely defensible. Rikkitic's isn't. He has some ethereal notion of what's fair profit or whatever-he-deems it for a content creator and that (this is a complete quote of a sentence that he wrote):

 

 

 

For me the real issue remains simply being able to choose (and pay for) what I what when I want it.

 

 

 

So if Rikkitic wants something, he is entitled to have it. He will pay (at what price he doesn't say) but if, say, for practical reason some obscure content that he wants isn't explicitly made available here because it's economically not viable to have the relevant distribution agreements or infrastructure in place, he is somehow "wronged". That's what people are objecting to.


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  Reply # 1598832 26-Jul-2016 10:49
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Apart from all the heated discussion I actually think things are changing and will continue to change, in spite of hiccups along the way. I think the long-term trend, driven by consumer demand, will be in the direction of a  more global distribution method for digital content. We are currently in a transition period, but we do now have Netflix in this country, albeit in much reduced form, as well as other providers. This is a big change from a few years ago. Over time I think the differences between catalogues here and in other countries will reduce, except for purely local content, and eventually we will have a global market or very close to one. It is an evolutionary process and while I will continue to advocate for what I believe, I think the discussion is probably largely academic.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1598838 26-Jul-2016 10:54
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Talkiet:

 

 

 

Not true for reasons of [large network] and [efficient delivery of service on large networks].

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm aware it's a simplification. I have been working in telecommunications as either an equipment vendor or a network operator for nearly 20 years. I am aware that there are often different wholesale commercial arrangements for local versus international content providers in regards to CDNs.

 

However, the difference in your costs between someone watching NZ Netflix, someone watching US Netflix, and someone pulling 100Mbps over a VPN from the US is something you choose not to pass on to your retail customers because a) they don't understand the difference, and b) they wouldn't care even if they did.

 

And there it is again - the economics problem can be fixed by people voting with their feet, when the choice is between 'reduced margin' versus 'no income.'





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  Reply # 1598840 26-Jul-2016 10:56
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SaltyNZ:

 

tdgeek:

 

This topic can easily be why are cars overpriced, why is bread over priced by these bleeders in business. But for media its tremndy and cool to be anti establishment and bury your head in the sand re the real world economics

 

 

 

 

For physical goods there is a legitimate reason why they should be more expensive here than elsewhere: someone has to move it from elsewhere to New Zealand. Doing so whilst providing some level of economy of scale involves a middle man, or chain of middle men. There is no such excuse for pure digital goods. It costs no more or less to provide a stream of Game of Thrones to a TV in San Francisco than it does to a TV in Auckland.

 

I can certainly see a reason for one middle man between me and the content creator - because content creators create content, they don't run big server farms - but any other middle men are simply taking a cut whilst providing no value.

 

Netflix pay for content with global distribution rights. No. They buy rights based on global or regional, as some other provider has bought regional rights. That right there shows that it can be done, and the only reason it isn't is because the middle men don't want to lose their rent. That's not me being 'trendy'. That's economics. But yet again you're accusing me of wanting everything for free. If that's what I wanted, that's what I would do. But instead, I pay for Hulu. I pay for HBO. I pay for Amazon Prime. I paid for Netflix until they made it clear they didn't want me to pay them. I pay for music and movies on iTunes. I pay for physical discs - I have been collecting them since the only place to get them was Amazon, back in 1997. I have so many my wife makes me keep them in the garage.

 

Where is this 'free' you think I am wanting?

 

 

Free, or near free, or far too cheap compared to the real cost. This isnt 4 creators and a few SVOD and us. Many providers around the globe, advertisers, creating a desire by buying exclusive content, there is a whole ecosystem going on. So some content isnt freely available worldwide. It might be at Sky or some other. Or its coming


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  Reply # 1598842 26-Jul-2016 11:00
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MikeB4:
ockel:

 

And how much "new content" is available on Netflix or Lightbox each month/year?   Most of it is..... back catalogue (ie reruns that have been available/seen elsewhere).  Drop down your statistics as to the number of hours of new content has been added by each provider (and you should include TVNZ, Mediaworks, Prime, Bravo (shudder), Sky, Netflix NZ, Lightbox) over the last 3/6/12 months.  Glib comments not helpful.  

 



Sky is at least 5x the price of Netflix for repeats. I have Sky and I do get sick of the Sky NZ premier ads for a new Grand Designs series that is yet another repeat. Right now without doing precise metrics a gut feeling is Sky's content on the basic package is close to 80% repeats, movies would be 50%+

 

Using your gut feel that means that Sky Basic has ~4800 hours of new content per month (80% being repeats).  Or 55,000 hours of new content per year.  That compares to 600 hours of Netflix exclusive content planned for 2016.  So to be comparable Netflix has to offer 11,000 hours of new content per year - that means that the US catalogue would have to be 75% replaced each year and the NZ catalogue would have to be changed more than 2x per year (and I include movies in Netflix catalogues but not Sky).  

 

I think your estimate on movies is too optimistic.  2,500 hours of new movie content per month means Sky would offer 1000 new movies per month.  And this is probably high by a factor of 10x!

 

BTW, if all the content on TVNZ was new every day that would be 1,800 hours per month.  


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  Reply # 1598843 26-Jul-2016 11:00
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Bottom line is this is business. Some dont want to see that as it dosnt suit. Some dont like profits, consider many profits as unfair. This isnt Woodstock, free love, anti establishment, its the same business that we all are a part of in daily life


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  Reply # 1598844 26-Jul-2016 11:00
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Has this thread run it's course?

 

I feel like everything has already been said and everything from this point onward is going to lower the collective IQ :) 

 

 


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