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  Reply # 1474358 19-Jan-2016 09:57
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I just read through the latest posts here. I think this is becoming a circular debate. Everyone has had their say and no-one is going to change their mind. I stand by what I have previously stated. I note that ‘piracy’ and ‘geoblock bypass’ are still being used in the same sentence, as if they have something to do with each other, which they don’t, but I have already pointed out the deception of this kind of tactic.

 

I will continue to use geo-unblocking or whatever replaces it unless it actually does become illegal, which would be a huge mistake, and I will do this with a clear conscience. In my opinion, the arguments presented against this are illogical and incorrect, but those presenting them certainly have every right to believe what they do.

 

The only thing I will add is that the music industry only changed its way of doing business when it was forced to by the actions of its customers. I think something of the same is happening here. Ultimately content will be made more widely available, and will become easier to access. This will happen because technology and attitude will have made it possible for consumers to write their own rules. This I applaud. You can spew on about contracts and tort law and the like all you want, but commerce is not a one-way proposition. Yes, the sellers can make up any rules and conditions they like, but so can the buyers. This is the great thing about a free market. If customers vote with their feet, things will change. That is what is starting to happen.

 

 




I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1474386 19-Jan-2016 10:24
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The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1474400 19-Jan-2016 10:51
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MikeB4: The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.

 

Or have Netflix acquire the local rights to aggregate them to global.

 

Or have Netflix pay the local owners the right to use in those other geographies.  

 

There are many other contractual remedies that can be implemented.

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  Reply # 1474412 19-Jan-2016 11:02
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Rikkitic: I just read through the latest posts here. I think this is becoming a circular debate. Everyone has had their say and no-one is going to change their mind. I stand by what I have previously stated. I note that ‘piracy’ and ‘geoblock bypass’ are still being used in the same sentence, as if they have something to do with each other, which they don’t, but I have already pointed out the deception of this kind of tactic.

 

 

they actually might do - which is why the legal case wasn't as straight forward as some people made out. (if it was so cut and dry, then it wouldn't matter that sky has expensive lawyers - the global mode guys would have won and made $$$)

 

The argument that it could be copyright infringement goes something like this:

 

 

 

When you buy a piece of content on DVD, that grants you a licence to do certain things with the content (watch it at home etc).  If you do things that the licence does NOT grant you (e.g. public showing, make copies and on-sell them etc) you are breaching the licence you paid for and thus breaching copyright.

 

If someone knowingly buy one of these pirated DVDs, you are also in breach of copyright (although rarely prosecuted)

 

When you access content via a geoblock bypass, you are (probably) being granted a licence to watch that content in a particular country that isn't NZ.  If you watch that content in NZ, you are breaching the licence you paid for, and thus breaching copyright.

 

 

 

As a distribution compay (i.e. Netflix) it works basically the same way - its just a different licence.  In Netflix's case, their licence grants them the rights to sell the content in certain countries but not others.  If they turn around and start selling the content in countries where they do not have the licence it is just the same, from a legal perspective, as the guy selling bootleg DVDs

 

ergo, when Netflix buys the licence to distribute content in the USA but not other countries, if it then distributes that content in NZ, it is breaching the licence it paid for and thus breaching copyright.

 

 

 

where it gets to be a grey area is that NZ has 'parallel importing' laws that make the importation of stuff (DVDs, clothes etc) legal even when a local supplier has an exclusive deal - which would apparently cover off using Netflix.

 

However, the key difference here, IMH(and non-legal)O, is that when you buy a parallel imported DVD the licence is very different.  The licence on a DVD granted to the distributer is NOT about where the content can be watched, but rather where it can be sold. So you buy a DVD from, say, amazon, and have it shipped to a USA address and then on-shipped to NZ, Amazon have abided by their distribution contract and cannot do anything about what happens after that.  

 

However, when you use Netflix, their product licence is very different. it's not just about distribution of a physical DVD, it's about streaming of digital content and if the content gets streamed in NZ then they could easily be in breach of copyright.

 

Summary:  It's not definitely the case that using USA Netflix in NZ is breach of copyright, but neither is it definitely not. It's pretty unclear either way and arguments can be made for both sides.

 

So I don't see how it is a 'deceptive tactic' to make that sort of argument when it is very much a grey area - and IMHO people should stop claiming that it is so obviously legal and totally fine when it is not so obvious.

 

 

 

 

I will continue to use geo-unblocking or whatever replaces it unless it actually does become illegal, which would be a huge mistake, and I will do this with a clear conscience. In my opinion, the arguments presented against this are illogical and incorrect, but those presenting them certainly have every right to believe what they do. The only thing I will add is that the music industry only changed its way of doing business when it was forced to by the actions of its customers. I think something of the same is happening here. Ultimately content will be made more widely available, and will become easier to access. This will happen because technology and attitude will have made it possible for consumers to write their own rules. This I applaud. You can spew on about contracts and tort law and the like all you want, but commerce is not a one-way proposition. Yes, the sellers can make up any rules and conditions they like, but so can the buyers.

 

 

 

 

Well not quite.    the terms and conditions need to be agreed by both sides before the contract takes place.  But then once it does, neither party can unilaterally change them.  If Netflix buys exclusive rights to show breaking bad only in the USA,  then it cannot show it in other countries. But likewise the studios cannot then sell the content to another provider to show in the USA. Contracts do go bother ways, but once you've signed one, you have to agree by the terms. 

 

Generally speaking with a buy/sell contract,  the seller is the one who decides the conditions and price, and then the buyer can choose to accept, or not, that price (with room for negotiating points of course).  If netflix wants to sell content worldwide, then it needs to buy those rights. Until it does, it needs to take reasonable steps to not 'accidentally' sell content outside of it's agreed upon contracts.

 

 

 

 

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  Reply # 1474413 19-Jan-2016 11:02
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ockel:
MikeB4: The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.
Or have Netflix acquire the local rights to aggregate them to global. Or have Netflix pay the local owners the right to use in those other geographies.   There are many other contractual remedies that can be implemented.

 

 

 

My personal preference would be for the rights owners to apply global rights when selling the rights. This is the cleanest and easiest managed and probably cheapest alternative.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1474427 19-Jan-2016 11:17
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MikeB4:
ockel:
MikeB4: The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.
Or have Netflix acquire the local rights to aggregate them to global. Or have Netflix pay the local owners the right to use in those other geographies.   There are many other contractual remedies that can be implemented.
  My personal preference would be for the rights owners to apply global rights when selling the rights. This is the cleanest and easiest managed and probably cheapest alternative.

 

 

 

how do you mean?  force studios to make any and all licensing deals on a global basis?  So they would only ever be allowed to sell rights to a company willing to distribute that content globally?  (what if they don't want to?  What if the distributors don't want global rights? would they still be forced to buy them?)

 

BTW studios are perfectly willing to sell rights on a global basis right now - you just have to be willing to pay more than they otherwise make by selling them peicemeal.  So how would your proposal work, specifically, to remedy this 'problem'?

 

 

 

 

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  Reply # 1474448 19-Jan-2016 11:31
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NonprayingMantis:
MikeB4:
ockel:
MikeB4: The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.
Or have Netflix acquire the local rights to aggregate them to global. Or have Netflix pay the local owners the right to use in those other geographies.   There are many other contractual remedies that can be implemented.
  My personal preference would be for the rights owners to apply global rights when selling the rights. This is the cleanest and easiest managed and probably cheapest alternative.

 
how do you mean?  force studios to make any and all licensing deals on a global basis?  So they would only ever be allowed to sell rights to a company willing to distribute that content globally?  (what if they don't want to?  What if the distributors don't want global rights? would they still be forced to buy them?)
BTW studios are perfectly willing to sell rights on a global basis right now - you just have to be willing to pay more than they otherwise make by selling them peicemeal.  So how would your proposal work, specifically, to remedy this 'problem'?
 
 


No I don't mean force rights owners, I mean negotiate with them to bring about mutually acceptable agreements. Last thing we need in this market or any market is more regulation.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1474459 19-Jan-2016 11:36
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MikeB4:
NonprayingMantis:
MikeB4:
ockel:
MikeB4: The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.
Or have Netflix acquire the local rights to aggregate them to global. Or have Netflix pay the local owners the right to use in those other geographies.   There are many other contractual remedies that can be implemented.
  My personal preference would be for the rights owners to apply global rights when selling the rights. This is the cleanest and easiest managed and probably cheapest alternative.

 
how do you mean?  force studios to make any and all licensing deals on a global basis?  So they would only ever be allowed to sell rights to a company willing to distribute that content globally?  (what if they don't want to?  What if the distributors don't want global rights? would they still be forced to buy them?)
BTW studios are perfectly willing to sell rights on a global basis right now - you just have to be willing to pay more than they otherwise make by selling them peicemeal.  So how would your proposal work, specifically, to remedy this 'problem'?
 
 


No I don't mean force rights owners, I mean negotiate with them to bring about mutually acceptable agreements. Last thing we need in this market or any market is more regulation.

 

 

 

well as per my last paragraph, they already do that, you just need to be willing to pay the price they ask 

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  Reply # 1474561 19-Jan-2016 13:03
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tdgeek: Streaming is a transfer mechanism not a production mechanism


This is one of your underpinning assumptions I fundamentally disagree on. Streaming will change production in the same way as VHS, DVD and cable TV did before it. I'd argue more than all of them combined.

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  Reply # 1474783 19-Jan-2016 18:35
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MikeB4:
NonprayingMantis:
MikeB4:
ockel:
MikeB4: The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.
Or have Netflix acquire the local rights to aggregate them to global. Or have Netflix pay the local owners the right to use in those other geographies.   There are many other contractual remedies that can be implemented.
  My personal preference would be for the rights owners to apply global rights when selling the rights. This is the cleanest and easiest managed and probably cheapest alternative.

 
how do you mean?  force studios to make any and all licensing deals on a global basis?  So they would only ever be allowed to sell rights to a company willing to distribute that content globally?  (what if they don't want to?  What if the distributors don't want global rights? would they still be forced to buy them?)
BTW studios are perfectly willing to sell rights on a global basis right now - you just have to be willing to pay more than they otherwise make by selling them peicemeal.  So how would your proposal work, specifically, to remedy this 'problem'?
 
 


No I don't mean force rights owners, I mean negotiate with them to bring about mutually acceptable agreements. Last thing we need in this market or any market is more regulation.


Best way is to explicitly make geo-unblocking legal. Then the dinosaur content owners can stuck it.

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  Reply # 1474841 19-Jan-2016 19:31
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sultanoswing:
MikeB4:
NonprayingMantis:
MikeB4:
ockel:
MikeB4: The answer is to lobby rights owners to change their T&C's to global as opposed to geo specific.
Or have Netflix acquire the local rights to aggregate them to global. Or have Netflix pay the local owners the right to use in those other geographies.   There are many other contractual remedies that can be implemented.
  My personal preference would be for the rights owners to apply global rights when selling the rights. This is the cleanest and easiest managed and probably cheapest alternative.

 
how do you mean?  force studios to make any and all licensing deals on a global basis?  So they would only ever be allowed to sell rights to a company willing to distribute that content globally?  (what if they don't want to?  What if the distributors don't want global rights? would they still be forced to buy them?)
BTW studios are perfectly willing to sell rights on a global basis right now - you just have to be willing to pay more than they otherwise make by selling them peicemeal.  So how would your proposal work, specifically, to remedy this 'problem'?
 
 


No I don't mean force rights owners, I mean negotiate with them to bring about mutually acceptable agreements. Last thing we need in this market or any market is more regulation.


Best way is to explicitly make geo-unblocking legal. Then the dinosaur content owners can stuck it.


Even if that happened, studios could still sell rights on a regional basis and force the likes of Netflix to implement much stronger protection to stop people outside those regions from accessing it.
(I.e. Getting around TPMs for the purpose of parallel importing is very legal, but companies can still make it as hard as possible to get around them if they want)

IP blocking has been industry standard for some years as a geographical TPM, and worked pretty well up until about 2 years ago. It's only with the proliferation of smart DNS services and explosive growth that it has really become useless as protection.

There are plenty of other things they can do though, some of which will be incredibly hard to get around for the masses (but not for a small number of geeks who will always be able to get around these things, and who the studios don't care about anyway)


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  Reply # 1475162 20-Jan-2016 10:00
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There are plenty of other things they can do though, some of which will be incredibly hard to get around for the masses (but not for a small number of geeks who will always be able to get around these things, and who the studios don't care about anyway)

 

I think that the studios do care about anyone who avoids their geographic restrictions. The cases they have prosecuted have included geeks as well as members of the masses. The only protection is likely to be having a solution that is geeky enough that the studios cannot discover what you are doing.


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  Reply # 1475165 20-Jan-2016 10:07
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Hammerer:

 


There are plenty of other things they can do though, some of which will be incredibly hard to get around for the masses (but not for a small number of geeks who will always be able to get around these things, and who the studios don't care about anyway)

 

I think that the studios do care about anyone who avoids their geographic restrictions. The cases they have prosecuted have included geeks as well as members of the masses. The only protection is likely to be having a solution that is geeky enough that the studios cannot discover what you are doing.

 

 

this is a little different.  The cases they prosecute for piracy are geeks because they are the ones who download and upload vast vast amounts of content.   They are like the 'drug dealers' of the content world - providing the content for many othe r people as well as themselves,  rather than just the 'users'.

 

However, in the case of streaming,  the geeks are typically just accessing the service for their own personal consumption.

 

It is impossible to police every single back door - and entirely unecnomical to do so due to the law of diminishing returns..  

 

e.g. it might cost $50m to stop 90% of all illegitimate streaming, but to stop the 99% might costs an extra $300m, and to stop 100% might cost $1bn.  

 

And then there is also the likelyhood that if they stop the 'average' person,  that person will possibly/probably go back to paying their local suppliers. (Sky, Lightbox, Netflix NZ etc)

 

But if they stop the geeks, those people will just go back to piracy. So the upside from stopping average person is worth chasing. The upside from stopping a geek is virtually nothing.


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  Reply # 1475166 20-Jan-2016 10:08
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NonprayingMantis:
I will continue to use geo-unblocking or whatever replaces it unless it actually does become illegal, which would be a huge mistake, and I will do this with a clear conscience. In my opinion, the arguments presented against this are illogical and incorrect, but those presenting them certainly have every right to believe what they do. The only thing I will add is that the music industry only changed its way of doing business when it was forced to by the actions of its customers. I think something of the same is happening here. Ultimately content will be made more widely available, and will become easier to access. This will happen because technology and attitude will have made it possible for consumers to write their own rules. This I applaud. You can spew on about contracts and tort law and the like all you want, but commerce is not a one-way proposition. Yes, the sellers can make up any rules and conditions they like, but so can the buyers.  
Well not quite.    the terms and conditions need to be agreed by both sides before the contract takes place.  But then once it does, neither party can unilaterally change them.  If Netflix buys exclusive rights to show breaking bad only in the USA,  then it cannot show it in other countries. But likewise the studios cannot then sell the content to another provider to show in the USA. Contracts do go bother ways, but once you've signed one, you have to agree by the terms.  Generally speaking with a buy/sell contract,  the seller is the one who decides the conditions and price, and then the buyer can choose to accept, or not, that price (with room for negotiating points of course).  If netflix wants to sell content worldwide, then it needs to buy those rights. Until it does, it needs to take reasonable steps to not 'accidentally' sell content outside of it's agreed upon contracts.    

 

NonprayingMantis, I liked your overall response as one of the more reasonable in this thread but it is not entirely correct to say "Contracts do go bother ways, but once you've signed one, you have to agree by the terms" - my emphasis. There are several legal reasons why we may not have to. Here's a few:

 

  • inequality of bargaining power - that article is worth a read particularly about the opinions on competition
  • unfair contract terms provision of the Fair Trading Act
  • moral hazard. Netflix may be playing both sides off against each other to speedup the growth of global licensing of content and improve the likelihood that it will be the dominant distributor of such content. Netflix has designed a global distribution system where any person only has one account. That suggests that the onus is on Netflix to manage the restrictions it has agreed to comply with rather than creating a moral hazard that facilitates avoidance of geographic restrictions.

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  Reply # 1475172 20-Jan-2016 10:15
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sultanoswing: 
Best way is to explicitly make geo-unblocking legal. Then the dinosaur content owners can stuck it.

 

Seems to me that Netflix & co still would be able to combat geo-unblocking, even if it was explicitly legal in NZ.





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