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592 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2286848 31-Jul-2019 21:23
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How does the spark sport frame rate compare to kayo?

Overarching undertones
3785 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  # 2286888 1-Aug-2019 01:45
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ockel:

niallm90:


ockel:


Apsattv:


Spark TV channel streams have also been dropped to 25 fps!


What the hell are they doing!~


 



Revenue earned not justifying costs incurred.....



The cost hasn't change, the bit rate is the same...



Lower development costs as Spark are only covering the lowest common denominator by covering the broadest range of supported devices but sacrificing quality to deliver.  Imagine a world where only one platform was supported - CPE cost for the consumer but easily supportable at a high quality.  [BTW the consumer has to acquire a Chromecast or an Apple TV or some CPE anyway, go figure]



SS are nowhere near covering “the broadest range of supported devices” IMO. For a start, they’re only covering the last two years models of a small number of TV brands.

 
 
 
 


1330 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2286891 1-Aug-2019 02:52
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Im talking about the linear channels

 

EDGE TV

 

MAN United

 

NBA

 

all were 50/60 FPS previously and now are 25/30

 

 


17 posts

Geek


  # 2286904 1-Aug-2019 07:41
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does Spark Sports have IPTV options? (m3u)?


22 posts

Geek


  # 2287423 2-Aug-2019 00:41
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Have just signed up to geekzone after subscribing to spark sport in the past couple of days and read through this forum post and seen some extremely helpful peeps from spark sport providing info.

Would one of those helpful people here in the know give me a heads up on the following.

I'm watching on the Sony android tv app. Been waiting for it as wanted the best quality picture and didn't think the chrome cast built into my TV would provide it.

My TV is the Sony 2018 55x900f

My isp is Vodafone.

I have fibre. I can watch 4k hdr content at about 15mb per second on Netflix, and 1080p content at about 5.5mb per second. The picture is beautiful.

When I watch spark sport, the motion is absolutely terrible.

I don't know how to check on my platform, but the bit rate looks low. Lots of digital noise.

The resolution seems low, the picture is very soft.

Motion artifacts are terrible, don't know if it is something with the codec? I've tried every, motion setting on my TV to try and clean it up to no avail, it must be in the source.

The frame rate seems really low. Panning camera shots, or balls/cars moving across the screen are juddery and have long trails.

Honestly the quality of picture is really not close to being good enough for sports content.

So my question. Is this indicative of the quality to be expected moving forward, or in the near future will this be resolved?

I'm the perfect spark sport customer. I signed up for F1, and EPL. I cancelled my sky subscription. I know how to get everything set up. I'm not too interested, but if the picture quality improves I'll probably get the RWC pass.

If you get the rights to the champions league and the tennis slams I'll be in sporting heaven.

Just please let me know what the deal is with the picture quality. I must say, was disappointed when I watched the German gp and some footy matches. I can put up with it though if I know things will improve quickly.

Thanks again for the input of everyone here!



78 posts

Master Geek


  # 2287556 2-Aug-2019 10:33
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This dumbing down of the stream quality is a such a poor decision. 

 

Who ever made it does not understand their target audience at all. 

 

They've clearly done it to alleviate their server/bandwidth costs (which even though not corroborated is clearly the reason for their variable quality over the past few months). 

 

It's a false economy, dropping fps on fast moving content like sports, for people who are specifically paying to watch these sports, will result in fewer people subscribing - and at that point you've dropped quality for nothing because you won't have the subscriber numbers to even tickle the servers.

 

I was about to sub for the EPL (and RWC), but based on these reports and some corroboration from friends I've decided not to bother until I get reports of improved quality.

 

Disappointed because I was looking forward to the EPL in particular but watching it at 30fps would just kill the enjoyment. I didn't invest in a 4k TV and fibre broadband to watch crappy quality streams at 30fps. This is 2019 ffs.

 

I'll simply find another source and VPN it. 

 

Good luck recouping that money you paid for the EPL rights Spark - given the small subscriber base here in NZ, you probably can't afford to be losing subscribers before the season even starts due to dumb executive decisions like this.

 

My bet is that the exec who made this call doesn't even watch sport.

 

 

 

 


119 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

  # 2287589 2-Aug-2019 11:20
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grimwulf:

 

This dumbing down of the stream quality is a such a poor decision. 

 

Who ever made it does not understand their target audience at all. 

 

They've clearly done it to alleviate their server/bandwidth costs (which even though not corroborated is clearly the reason for their variable quality over the past few months). 

 

It's a false economy, dropping fps on fast moving content like sports, for people who are specifically paying to watch these sports, will result in fewer people subscribing - and at that point you've dropped quality for nothing because you won't have the subscriber numbers to even tickle the servers.

 

I was about to sub for the EPL (and RWC), but based on these reports and some corroboration from friends I've decided not to bother until I get reports of improved quality.

 

Disappointed because I was looking forward to the EPL in particular but watching it at 30fps would just kill the enjoyment. I didn't invest in a 4k TV and fibre broadband to watch crappy quality streams at 30fps. This is 2019 ffs.

 

I'll simply find another source and VPN it. 

 

Good luck recouping that money you paid for the EPL rights Spark - given the small subscriber base here in NZ, you probably can't afford to be losing subscribers before the season even starts due to dumb executive decisions like this.

 

My bet is that the exec who made this call doesn't even watch sport.

 

 

The reduction in fps has not effected the bit rate and so has not reduced bandwidth costs. The 60fps stream and 30fps steam are both 6Mbps.


 
 
 
 


559 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2287630 2-Aug-2019 12:34
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So what's the deal, is anyone from Spark going to comment on this? I got fibre installed with the intention of streaming the epl and rwc. Do I need to look for alternatives to Spark Sport?

1889 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  # 2287633 2-Aug-2019 12:36
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I'm giving this the benefit of the doubt for the moment.  I'm not entirely happy with the performance of F1 but the fast panning for EPL will be a deal breaker if it carries on like this.


78 posts

Master Geek


  # 2287657 2-Aug-2019 13:23
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The reduction in fps has not effected the bit rate and so has not reduced bandwidth costs. The 60fps stream and 30fps steam are both 6Mbps.

 

I'm not convinced that that is true - however I'm not a streaming video guru so stand to be corrected.

 

I would argue that :-

 

  • That a 60fps source video file at the same quality will have roughly double the file-size of that of a 30fps source video - simply by virtue of having double the number of frames.
  • Transmission at the same bit-rate would (all things being equal) take twice as long...
  • And would therefore consume more bandwidth and thereby server handling time as the stream downloads and buffers...
  • Thus more bandwidth used and more server handling time required for the same time period.
  • For example, at the 6Mbps quoted - you'd could have your 30fps stream at maximum buffer (which means the server takes a breather) whilst your 60fps stream would still be buffering (which means the server's still doing something).

In my view it's primarily cost-reduction math on Sparks end - TLDR; servers can handle more 'concurrent' 30fps streams than 60fps streams = lower server costs and lower bandwidth costs.

 

Given the quoted reason of 'supporting more client platforms' - I'd be interested if anyone has examples of any of Sparks supported client platforms that can't handle a 60fps stream?


559 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2287658 2-Aug-2019 13:23
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Just had a live chat with spark sport and the rep said, and I quote: "We did this to offer more devices" and "sorry about that".

 

 

 

What a joke!

 

 


1889 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  # 2287669 2-Aug-2019 13:35
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Understandable, although I would be interested in why the lower frame rates has been selected, it was very clear on the football feeds and noticeable on the F1 feeds... Given Sky Sports now is supposed to be 1080p/60 (unless I've got it wrong) spark need to consider their offering in relation to their competitors, not only on content but price and performance.


28 posts

Geek


  # 2287677 2-Aug-2019 13:52
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I am actually considering canceling my rwc pass because of the low 30fps that I am reading about. It is very important that all sports are broadcast with 60fps no matter the platform. It doesn't appear that spark sports are getting this basic message. And so far have yet to comment on it.

119 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

  # 2287728 2-Aug-2019 14:41
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grimwulf:

 

The reduction in fps has not effected the bit rate and so has not reduced bandwidth costs. The 60fps stream and 30fps steam are both 6Mbps.

 

I'm not convinced that that is true - however I'm not a streaming video guru so stand to be corrected.

 

I would argue that :-

 

  • That a 60fps source video file at the same quality will have roughly double the file-size of that of a 30fps source video - simply by virtue of having double the number of frames.
  • Transmission at the same bit-rate would (all things being equal) take twice as long...
  • And would therefore consume more bandwidth and thereby server handling time as the stream downloads and buffers...
  • Thus more bandwidth used and more server handling time required for the same time period.
  • For example, at the 6Mbps quoted - you'd could have your 30fps stream at maximum buffer (which means the server takes a breather) whilst your 60fps stream would still be buffering (which means the server's still doing something).

In my view it's primarily cost-reduction math on Sparks end - TLDR; servers can handle more 'concurrent' 30fps streams than 60fps streams = lower server costs and lower bandwidth costs.

 

Given the quoted reason of 'supporting more client platforms' - I'd be interested if anyone has examples of any of Sparks supported client platforms that can't handle a 60fps stream?

 

 

I'm no expert either but Mbps is a measure of the bandwidth. A 6 Mbps stream could be 8K at 60fps and look terrible or 720p at 30fps and look great. There can be no increase in time it takes to transmit the stream on live content. Given what Spark published at the NZ NOG the stream maxes out at 6 Mbps for both 30fps and 60fps.

 

With live content you need to have an average bandwidth higher than 6 Mbps for it to be streamed to you at this rate. If it was taking twice as long to download it wouldn't be "live". You would have to buffer 50% before you could watch the whole thing without buffering.


14 posts

Geek


  # 2287748 2-Aug-2019 15:39
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Talkiet, can appreciate your response, everyone deserves respect.

 

However, I've got to say, there's clearly a problem here, which I suspect could become a much bigger problem for SS when the RWC starts streaming. A lack of engagement by SS here is not going to help, and seems to be contributing to people's frustrations. It's not even clear if SS are still looking at re-introducing 50/60 fps at some point?

 

So perhaps we can help come up with a solution to this? To help provide feedback to SS on what us, as customers, are thinking. To start, what is the actual problem?

 

Looking at bandwidth, I'm seeing 6,000 kbps on SS (as the VOD filename suggests). What's interesting is that YouTube seems to be 4,500 kbps when I watch the German GP highlights at 1080p50. DRM may add an overhead, but still, perhaps bandwidth is not the major factor here, especially if it was 6,000 at 50 fps too?

 

SS Support have told me (as they have others) that "The reason for the change from 60 to 30fps is to ensure more devices are able to access the service as a number of devices were not able to work at 60."

 

OK, in which case there's a technical issue, a classic example of providing the "lowest common denominator". But what is the actual problem?

 

P1. Perhaps SS cannot identify which devices can support 50/60 fps? So ok, a technical issue.

 

P2. Perhaps SS can identify which devices can support 50/60 fps, but do not want to provide two different streams (e.g. 25 & 50)? Perhaps a technical issue, but possibly a financial issue?

 

If it technical, what could be done to solve it? How about:

 

S1. Could SS introduce a per-device setting to choose the frame rate ("High" or "Low")? Or if there's some limitation (or other reason) why device-level settings are not possible, why not have an account-level setting? I'm always watching on the same device, for example, so an account-level setting is fine for me. It could default to "Low", for now at least.

 

S2. YouTube seems to dynamically adapt fine to the device playing the video. So why can't the SS player do the same?

 

S3. Perhaps at least the browser-based SS - when it identifies the device as a PC - could default to 50/60 fps?

 

Without knowing exactly which devices cannot do 50/60 fps, it's tricky to come up with a specific solution, but there's got to be a solution somewhere?!


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