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DNArewind
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  #2290996 6-Aug-2019 15:29
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Benoire:

 

hio77:

 

Spark Sport have at this stage made a drop from 50/60 FPS down to 25/30FPS (note bitrate has not changed, so Quality should not be reduced)

 

 

Thanks for acting in this way, yes its hard to be the messenger sometimes!

 

I've qouted the bit that I think is wrong though, Quality is framerate and resolution.  A HD definition image is defined by its resolution but the quality of the stream is also defined by its framerate.  A high resolution but low framerate is, in my opinion, not a quality stream.  A low framerate (24fps for example) is ok for movies where they can use a lot of motion blur to hide the frames, but sports require fast shuttering to pick up ball/player movement and slow shutters will elongate the object being tracked badly... There is a reason why ESPN uses 720p/60 and Sky(NZ/UK for example) has used 1080i/50 as 1080p/30 just doesn't work for sports.

 

 

Absolutely agreed with Benoire. SS saying "bitrate has not changed, so Quality should not be reduced" suggests SS does not recognise how much of a quality issue the reduction in frame rate is to me, and other customers right on this thread.

 

Quality cannot be simply measured by a frame in isolation, it is also the fluidity of motion. Especially for sports content.

 

-Thanks hio77 for the info-


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networkn
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  #2291008 6-Aug-2019 15:50
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I watched 3 bits of video last weekend, and couldn't finish it. I watched some football, some F1 highlights and some Rugby Highlights. 

 

The Football and Rugby were unwatchable. I don't find myself affected by motion masters or any of that stuff, and I don't get motion sickness (boats being the exception), but I felt my brain was melting and my eyes hurt.

 

As per tdgeek the F1 was ok except for some types of motion.

 

This, watching from the Sony Android App for my Android TV, and from the same app sideloaded to my FireTV, both were approximately the same.

 

 

 

 


Benoire
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  #2291009 6-Aug-2019 15:53
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I'd echo what Networkn has stated except I don't have the rugby pass to test that but I'd imagine its very similar to the football.




  #2291011 6-Aug-2019 15:56
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what devices on sparks roadmap dont support 50/60fps?

 

maybe those devices shouldn't be supported?


jeffreyh
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  #2291018 6-Aug-2019 16:00
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Perhaps

 

I can't seem to find any info on the Chromecast around whether it supports 60fps. I see some articles suggesting that the Chromecast 1 only supported 30fps for 1080p, did that change with the Chromecast 2? Do you need a Chromecast Ultra for 1080p60


surfisup1000
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  #2291021 6-Aug-2019 16:04
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My thoughts... 25p/30p is the traditional framerate for tv... 50p/60p is high frame rate. So, why is 30p suddenly so bad? 

 

And, I assumed client apps would support adaptive playback, ie, the client chooses the stream according to hardware and network capabilities. And that can even change on the fly , if the bandwidth reduces for whatever reason.

 

It seems a bit primitive to stream to the lowest common denominator


hio77
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  #2291023 6-Aug-2019 16:04
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jeffreyh:

 

Perhaps

 

I can't seem to find any info on the Chromecast around whether it supports 60fps. I see some articles suggesting that the Chromecast 1 only supported 30fps for 1080p, did that change with the Chromecast 2? Do you need a Chromecast Ultra for 1080p60

 

 

Chromecast 1 & 2 models do not support past 30FPS, they suffer quite heavily actually.

 

 

 

Ontop of this there are a few other devices affected that I'm not sure i can communicate at this stage.





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

 

 




dm2000
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  #2291024 6-Aug-2019 16:04
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Chromecast '2018' aka gen 3 is 1080p/60. The previous model is only 1080p/30

Benoire
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  #2291028 6-Aug-2019 16:10
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surfisup1000:

 

My thoughts... 25p/30p is the traditional framerate for tv... 50p/60p is high frame rate. So, why is 30p suddenly so bad? 

 

And, I assumed client apps would support adaptive playback, ie, the client chooses the stream according to hardware and network capabilities. And that can even change on the fly , if the bandwidth reduces for whatever reason.

 

It seems a bit primitive to stream to the lowest common denominator

 

 

For normal TV, i.e. dramas, movies etc. 25/30 is fine as there is little motion that rqeuires fast panning.  For sports they have generally been 'recorded' at 50 or 60 fps, even when at low resolutions... The reduced framerate leads to issues with fast movement as the screen cannot update quick enough for the change in movement and it really confuses the eyes.

 

They've never had adapative framerate, just resolution.


niallm90
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  #2291037 6-Aug-2019 16:22
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surfisup1000:

 

My thoughts... 25p/30p is the traditional framerate for tv... 50p/60p is high frame rate. So, why is 30p suddenly so bad? 

 

And, I assumed client apps would support adaptive playback, ie, the client chooses the stream according to hardware and network capabilities. And that can even change on the fly , if the bandwidth reduces for whatever reason.

 

It seems a bit primitive to stream to the lowest common denominator

 

 

TV is 50i or 60i in most countries as far as I know. Some people have said that ESPN is different at 50p. I'm not aware of anyone using 25p or 30p for broadcast TV but I could be wrong.


  #2291038 6-Aug-2019 16:23
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hio77:

 

 

 

Chromecast 1 & 2 models do not support past 30FPS, they suffer quite heavily actually.

 

 

 

 

are you sure? i have a chromecast gen 2 and i have the option to force 50Hz mode from the standard 60Hz mode


wratterus
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  #2291042 6-Aug-2019 16:25
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I'm pretty sure gen2 would do 60fps at 720p but only 30fps at 1080 where gen3 does definitely do 1080/60


networkn
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  #2291044 6-Aug-2019 16:29
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I am a bit surprised at the suggestion that a drop from 50/60FPS 25/30Fps at the same bitrate wouldn't produce a materially lesser experience, otherwise why bother offering 50/60FPS in the first place.

 

In my mind, if you can offer 50/60FPS for the majority of the devices (assuming it is indeed a device compatiblity issue and nothing else), then surely allowing the end user to select this would be FAR preferable to stopping everyone except the (logically speaking) minority of users from having it by default?

 

 


hio77
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  #2291045 6-Aug-2019 16:32
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networkn:

 

I am a bit surprised at the suggestion that a drop from 50/60FPS 25/30Fps at the same bitrate wouldn't produce a materially lesser experience, otherwise why bother offering 50/60FPS in the first place.

 

In my mind, if you can offer 50/60FPS for the majority of the devices (assuming it is indeed a device compatiblity issue and nothing else), then surely allowing the end user to select this would be FAR preferable to stopping everyone except the (logically speaking) minority of users from having it by default?

 

 

 

 

I suspect it comes back to how these devices report back their serviceable quality.





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

 

 


networkn
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  #2291049 6-Aug-2019 16:40
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hio77:

 

networkn:

 

I am a bit surprised at the suggestion that a drop from 50/60FPS 25/30Fps at the same bitrate wouldn't produce a materially lesser experience, otherwise why bother offering 50/60FPS in the first place.

 

In my mind, if you can offer 50/60FPS for the majority of the devices (assuming it is indeed a device compatiblity issue and nothing else), then surely allowing the end user to select this would be FAR preferable to stopping everyone except the (logically speaking) minority of users from having it by default?

 

 

 

 

I suspect it comes back to how these devices report back their serviceable quality.

 

 

Well, be that as it may, perhaps it could be an option enabled per device in the account page of the website perhaps? A toggle with a well written explanation of the issues that may occur and perhaps a list of devices it's recommended against changing it for. 

 

Presumably devices give a device ID string when they connect, so you can identify them, and if they are device x or y known to have issues, they are set to 30 and the rest of the devices, get 50/60.


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