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  #2292188 8-Aug-2019 11:14
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While I am disappointed in the drop in frame-rate. (which is decreasing the service I receive for the benefit of others, with no reduction in cost to me), I am more concerned that the new encoding seems to me to have made the stream less robust! I am seeing glitches and errors (lasting several (to 20) seconds) where pages are displayed with static or jittery two frame oscillating incorrectly rendered images. This is happening both on PC with Chrome and Firefox, and also on Android TV on a Sony TV. I am also seeing occasional buffering, and more frequent drops to the lowest resolution (360), which take some time to recover to full resolution. While some of these issues may have existed before they seem to be much more prevalent with the new encoding. I should note I am not seeing these issues with the other online services I subscribe to (they do have their own issues but not these ones) e.g. WRC+ and another overseas based one with related content.


niallm90
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  #2292190 8-Aug-2019 11:16
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Senecio:

 

Here's an interesting article from back in February on how Kayo Sports are dealing with 1st and 2nd Gen Chromecasts.

 

https://www.comparetv.com.au/news/kayo/clever-tech-behind-kayo/

 

Scroll down to the section "Chromecast and Kayo"

 

 

 

Chromecast 1st and 2nd generations are hardware-limited to a maximum of 720p at 60 frames per second, or 1080p at 30 frames per second,” he says. “Kayo Sports encodes the vast majority of its live stream events in 1080p at 50 frames per second, exceeding the parameters of these two devices. We limit generation 1 and 2 to our 720p HD content while allowing the newer generation to access the 1080p HD version. It is important for us to target high resolutions and framerates, as sport is all about fast moving pictures, and the higher the frame rate and resolutions, the smoother the motion.

 

 

 

It's as simple as Spark Sport have chosen to prioritise pixels over frame rates where competitors who understand the importance of frame rates have decided to go the other way.

 

 

 

Spark Sport, please follow Kayos lead and implement 720p 50fps on Chromecast Gen 1 & 2 and so the rest of us can have 1080p and 50fps.

 

 

Nice find. I'm assuming that they decided to drop FPS rather than resolution as more people understand what a lower resolution would mean and it would get more negative publicity. The other option is that it was technically easier for them to do.

 

I remember talking to my wife months ago about Spark Sport when there was an article on the news. It was about people worrying Spark Sport would crash during a RWC game based on the problems an Australian provide had last year, don't remember their name. I said to her at the time I don't think that will happen, they appear to have spent a lot of time making sure they have the bandwidth and systems in place to managed the load. The problem will come down to stability and usability of the platform.

 

I feel like they spend too long looking at the specific problem of bandwidth and load and have dropped the ball on all the other aspects of the product. Steams not starting on time, the app being clunky to use, audio sync issues, blank screens during adds, broadcaster rehearsals being aired, VODs not cut to the start of steam.

 

As a paying customer I think I gave them a lot of leeway in the beginning to get things right. Most of us want to see the competition in the market. But don't get exclusive rights then offer a worse product.


Oblivian
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  #2292192 8-Aug-2019 11:21
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niallm90:

freaknout:


Thanks niallm90, really appreciate your response. 



Your welcome, thanks for responding. Previous comments I have made along the same lines seem to have been ignored. =(



The other way to possibly demonstrate is make a video in your fav editor. 5 seconds long. Of a white square that takes 1 (or 2) second to go from 1 side to the other. Let's call it a ball.

Export it at 50fps and 25fps. And I suspect the distance it travels will appear to (between frames) be double and have less smooth motion apparent as if every 2nd frame is skipped?



niallm90
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  #2292194 8-Aug-2019 11:21
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Batman: Let's get a bit side tracked for a bit.

Anyone knows what the rugby matches are recorded at 50 or 60 fps?

If 50fps there is no need to offer 60fps.
If 50, has any studies shown how you get that down to 30fps? Remove 20 frames or make up 30 new ones (which could explain the epilepsy effect)

 

According to the link here the host broadcaster will have it available at "4k SDR 2160p/59.94".


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  #2292197 8-Aug-2019 11:27
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I'd pay decent money to view RWC in 4K at 50/60 FPS.

 

 


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  #2292200 8-Aug-2019 11:28
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Batman: The FTA broadcast is at 50fps?

 

25FPS interlaced - TVNZ (and all other HD broadcast content in NZ) is in 1080i/25

 

 


Batman
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  #2292207 8-Aug-2019 11:41
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networkn:

I'd pay decent money to view RWC in 4K at 50/60 FPS.


 



That's low res in Japan?I heard they have a broadcaster that does 8K! Insane.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.




freaknout
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  #2292211 8-Aug-2019 11:44
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networkn:

 

I'd pay decent money to view RWC in 4K at 50/60 FPS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed!

 

When we were living in the UK we watched the last World Cup (Football) in 4K. The BBC were trialling the service via iPlayer.


niallm90
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  #2292214 8-Aug-2019 11:50
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sbiddle:

 

Batman: The FTA broadcast is at 50fps?

 

25FPS interlaced - TVNZ (and all other HD broadcast content in NZ) is in 1080i/25

 

 

 

 

I thought NZ broadcasts were 1080i/50?

 

 


networkn
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  #2292217 8-Aug-2019 11:52
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I could probably find this if I asked, but what is Super Rugby on Sky broadcast at?

 

 


Benoire
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  #2292218 8-Aug-2019 11:53
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bradstewart:

 

 

 

Just asked if they will be offering refunds mid-tournament if the choice to run at 30/25 makes the tournament unwatchable... Be interesting to see what they say.


Benoire
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  #2292219 8-Aug-2019 11:54
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networkn:

 

I could probably find this if I asked, but what is Super Rugby on Sky broadcast at?

 

 

 

 

1080i/50 - well not quite, the resolition is not quite 1080i or wasn't but the framerate was 50.... This was also noticable when you looked at ESPN at its 720p/60... ESPN felt smoother but less detailed due to the lower resolution.


Batman
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  #2292228 8-Aug-2019 12:08
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niallm90:

sbiddle:


Batman: The FTA broadcast is at 50fps?


25FPS interlaced - TVNZ (and all other HD broadcast content in NZ) is in 1080i/25


 



I thought NZ broadcasts were 1080i/50?


 



That's what he said

I now recall building my first htpc on windows 7 and I had to find a very capable gpu that could deinterlace 1080i. And now my integrated graphics can play 4k60fps using only 25% power




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


sbiddle
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  #2292236 8-Aug-2019 12:19
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Batman:
niallm90:

 

sbiddle:

 

Batman: The FTA broadcast is at 50fps?

 

25FPS interlaced - TVNZ (and all other HD broadcast content in NZ) is in 1080i/25

 

 

I thought NZ broadcasts were 1080i/50?

 



That's what he said

I now recall building my first htpc on windows 7 and I had to find the cheapest gpu that could deinterlace 1080i. And now my integrated graphics can play 4k60fps using only 25% power

 

Incorrect. All broadcasts are at 1080i/25

 

1080i/50 is the field rate in a 1080i PAL broadcast.

 

1080i/25 is the frame rate in a PAL 1080i interlaced broadcast.

 

While some broadcasters may say 1080i/50, the source material is at 25FPS with, 50 fields per second as it's interlaced. EBU say that this is written 1080i/25 and that the frame rate and not the field rate is used when describing the broadcast however some people may chose not to do this. 

 

Content at 1080 with a true 50 FPS rate would be 1080p/50 as it would not be interlaced.

 

 

 

 

 

 


ruff
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  #2292258 8-Aug-2019 13:24
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A lot of misinformation and confusion in this thread!

 

This below from sbiddle is correct.

 

 

Incorrect. All broadcasts are at 1080i/25

 

1080i/50 is the field rate in a 1080i PAL broadcast.

 

1080i/25 is the frame rate in a PAL 1080i interlaced broadcast.

 

While some broadcasters may say 1080i/50, the source material is at 25FPS with, 50 fields per second as it's interlaced. EBU say that this is written 1080i/25 and that the frame rate and not the field rate is used when describing the broadcast however some people may chose not to do this. 

 

Content at 1080 with a true 50 FPS rate would be 1080p/50 as it would not be interlaced.

 

 

Sports in PAL countries is shot at 1080 50i 25fps (2 fields to every frame)

 

What Spark Sport has just done is drop one of the fields of each frame.

 

Which is why it looks terrible.

 

And, I think they have lowered the bitrate as well.

 

 

 

Sports from NTSC based countries (such as Japan for the RWC) is shot at 29.976fps 1080 which is basically 60i for the fields.

 

All the RWC matches in Japan are being captured in 1080i. Any 4k output is being up-resed by the broadcaster.

 

Except. For one stadium. (Can't remember which one sorry). That has 12 or 14 4K cameras assigned to it. (Basically as a trial run for the Olympics).

 

 

 

(The Progressive images that you see on movies and most dramatic TV shoes are captured at 25P in Pal countries with a 180 degree shutter (1/50th sec exposure time). This is the correct amount of motion blur for features etc. Most of the sports is also captured with a 1/50th or 1/60th of a second exposure time as well.... it's the fields that make it look correct).

 

There is also the audio side of things (not my area...) but, what are they outputting? Just a basic 2 channel? Or a 5:1?

 

 

 

Either way, it's pretty terrible content delivery, when we go to the trouble of capturing at such a high standard.


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