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Topic # 201305 12-Aug-2016 16:33
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Hey guys, Orcon customer here. We've been having a little trouble with Orcon since moving to them for VDSL a month or two ago. We had an initial issue of no internet for the first 7 days with them, so we didn't exactly start on good terms. Once we were connected, everything seemed okay. Our modem has been syncing to 20mb down and 2mb up. Up from 8mb down and 1mb on ADSL, it's been a nice increase. However, we've ran into multiple problems that we've not had resolved. It's getting to the point where we're strongly considering an ISP change, and BigPipe is one we're looking at. 

I'm writing this to ask what kind of VDSL performance people have been getting? What kind of international latency is like, and if BigPipe are truly as good as people say they are? 

For the first 2 weeks into being connected with Orcon, our latency to America was fine. ~150ms to LA, which was what we got with Slingshot before moving, completely acceptable and normal. However, one night, our modem reset. Since being connected back, latency to American servers has been awful. The lowest we can currently get t US West is 215ms, which is roughly what we get to US East. Strangely, this only happens with game servers. Running a Ping/Speedtest to LA yields the old, unaffected latency (~150ms). This lower latency is the same for VoiP servers. It's only game severs that are affected, which leads me to believe the game traffic is being tinkered with. 

I'm mostly looking for some kind of confirmation that BigPipe doesn't do this with their game traffic. It's a huge issue since I game a lot on Western American servers, and this increased latency is completely intolerable. Latency to anywhere else hasn't been affected. 

We also experience pretty significant peak times. Anywhere from 4-8pm, our internet can take a big hit to performance, dropping speeds by more than half, and increasing latency dramatically. Again, this has only occurred since swapping to Orcon. It did happen in the past with Slingshot for a very short period of time, but it eventually fixed itself.

If anyone from BigPipe customer support is available to chat, I'd love to have a word :) 

Thanks in advance for any information,

Chris.


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  Reply # 1610818 12-Aug-2016 16:39
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Your VDSL sync rates will be exactly the same because it's on the same Chorus DSLAM.

 

Post some hosts you're interested in and I'll run some tracerts for you.


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  Reply # 1610821 12-Aug-2016 16:42
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Will also tracert on request, I dont really game online that much because ugh, other people. But when I have on the bigpipe it has been fine.

 

Big pipe are very responsive on twitter - @bigpipenz on there.





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  Reply # 1610826 12-Aug-2016 16:46
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raw VDSL performance will be identical on all isps.

 

 

 

as your latency is an issue, you want to stick to being on DLM-1. To do this, you want to avoid dropping DSL sync wherever possible, Have a clean line (Generally having a master filter installed helps this, Given your up on ADSL performance i would suspect you did have one installed however)

 

Just because you have X latency to Y city, doesn't mean it will be the same for every connection in that city. This is where the wonderful world of peering comes in.

 

 

 

if an ISP has a range of different peering options, there is a very slim chance they would reroute to improve it. However generally this is unlikely to get any traction. Equally important is the route BACK from the service to you, Which you may find is where the actual jump in latency is.

 

 

 

 

 

As above, Provide a few target hosts, and traces can be ran for you to make an educated decision.

 

 

 

It is highly unlikely orcon are messing with your gaming traffic, Generally if at all that is prioritised above bulk traffic on isps. (however that is assuming the traffic is correctly identified and marked as such ofcourse.)





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.




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  Reply # 1610835 12-Aug-2016 17:22
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Thanks for the fast response. As for ISP's we're currently looking at, it's mostly just BigPipe and 2degrees. 

I think we're on DLM-1 right now (I believe it bumped down last night, roughly 16ms lower). Feels like an un-interleaved ADSL line again. Recently its been about 16-20ms higher than what we had on ADSL, but yes, last night it seemed to drop again.

Still getting high latency to Western American game servers. I believe this to be an Orcon problem, not a VDSL one. Some kind of way the game traffic is being routed poorly (who knows). I'm not too concerned for VDSL speeds right now, 20mb down and 2mb up is a lot better than what we got before, and being this far from the closest exchange, there isn't much we can do (downstream line attenuation shows 28.1db at the moment). SNR Margin sits between 8.9 and 9.1 usually. 

Here are some game servers I generally game on.

Heroes of the Storm US West: 12.129.222.10

World of Warcraft US West: 12.129.222.10

Looks like both those servers are located in the same place. I used to get ~150ms to both these servers. Right now I'm getting 215ms. Both are located in LA. Speedtests and latency to VoiP servers in the same location give me a latency of 155ms. Lemme know what you guys are getting :) 


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  Reply # 1610869 12-Aug-2016 18:10
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Yes, that sounds like you have just dropped down to DLM-1

 

 

 

As they are both battlenet services, you have battlenets looking glass at your disposal.

 

http://us-looking-glass.battle.net/

 

 

 

Not any of your options you are looking at (nor would i personally recommend it for gaming) but vodafone adsl:

 

 

Tracing route to 12.129.222.10 over a maximum of 30 hops

 

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms edge-router.home.baird.io [10.3.57.1]
2 8 ms 7 ms 7 ms 47-72-143-254.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz [47.72.143.254]
3 8 ms 9 ms 8 ms bvi-400.bgnzldv02.akl.vf.net.nz [203.109.180.242]
4 9 ms 9 ms 8 ms bvi-188.bgnzldv02.akl.vf.net.nz [203.109.180.241]
5 134 ms 133 ms 133 ms 10.201.2.9
6 132 ms 132 ms 141 ms 0.xe-2-2-0.GW2.LAX1.ALTER.NET [152.179.103.57]
7 132 ms 136 ms 133 ms 0.ae5.BR3.LAX15.ALTER.NET [140.222.225.139]
8 135 ms 136 ms 134 ms 192.205.35.161
9 158 ms 159 ms 159 ms cr2.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.122.129.234]
10 154 ms 155 ms 156 ms 12.123.249.73

 

 

Return from US heros of the storm:

 

 

traceroute to WANIPADDRESS (WANIPADDRESS), 15 hops max, 60 byte packets
1 Blizzard (Blizzard) 0.387 ms 0.521 ms 0.563 ms
2 * * *
3 37.244.0.100 (37.244.0.100) 2.000 ms 2.010 ms 2.012 ms
4 24.105.31.1 (24.105.31.1) 13.574 ms 13.593 ms 13.698 ms
5 24.105.31.7 (24.105.31.7) 11.290 ms 11.354 ms 11.381 ms
6 37.244.2.32 (37.244.2.32) 11.010 ms 10.974 ms 10.965 ms
7 * * *
8 ten-0-2-0-0.cor01.sjc01.ca.VOCUS.net (114.31.199.180) 11.028 ms 11.056 ms 11.322 ms
9 bundle100.bdr01.sjc01.ca.vocus.net (49.255.255.19) 11.435 ms 11.448 ms 11.280 ms
10 as9500.cust.bdr03.sjc01.ca.VOCUS.net (114.31.199.138) 10.916 ms 10.967 ms 10.513 ms
11 bvi-188.bgnzldv02.akl.vf.net.nz (203.109.180.241) 130.982 ms 130.821 ms 131.063 ms
12 bvi-400.bgnzldv02.akl.vf.net.nz (203.109.180.242) 131.170 ms 131.545 ms 131.558 ms
13 * * *
14 (WANIPADDRESS).dyn.ihug.co.nz (WANIPADDRESS) 137.363 ms 137.581 ms 138.763 ms

 





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.




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  Reply # 1610871 12-Aug-2016 18:17
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Looks like you're getting very similar results to me before mine went funny. I've tried bringing it up with Orcon support but they don't seem to think there's an issue. Thanks for taking the time to do that though :) I'll probably be getting in-touch with BigPipe soon to see what they have to say.

 

I miss having my fibre connection back in the UK, I never had any problems :/ 

Also, did you say you were using Battlenet Looking Glass, or cmd prompt? I'm interested if there's a way I can troubleshoot this problem somewhat.


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  Reply # 1610874 12-Aug-2016 18:22
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ctucks:

 

Looks like you're getting very similar results to me before mine went funny. I've tried bringing it up with Orcon support but they don't seem to think there's an issue. Thanks for taking the time to do that though :) I'll probably be getting in-touch with BigPipe soon to see what they have to say.

 

I miss having my fibre connection back in the UK, I never had any problems :/ 

Also, did you say you were using Battlenet Looking Glass, or cmd prompt? I'm interested if there's a way I can troubleshoot this problem somewhat.

 

 

 

 

Both, as noted the return path is from the looking glass (getting it from there end is the only way you do get the return path)

 

 

 

Routing is a complicated thing, problem could be on anyones side, an upstream routing issue even. Often the lowest latency is not always the "Best" path.

 

That is where services like WTFast capitalise on, working their routing based on latency instead. (I personally have issues with their service locking up my network stack, so i cant recommend them. Myself, i route a few key locations through my own vpn network on my router. We don't all have a collection of services worldwide to bounce through however.)

 

 

 

Often getting a large isp to work around to provide a low latency path can be pushing sh!t up hill.





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.


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  Reply # 1610890 12-Aug-2016 19:04
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bigpipe vdsl in north shore, auckland on CGNAT,

 

 

 

C:\Users\OEM>tracert 12.129.222.10

Tracing route to 12.129.222.10 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  NF4V.INTERNET [172.16.2.2]
  2     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  100.64.0.1
  3     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  4     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  5     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  6     8 ms     9 ms     8 ms  ae11-201.akbr6.global-gateway.net.nz [122.56.118.145]
  7     8 ms     8 ms     9 ms  ae5-2.akbr7.global-gateway.net.nz [210.55.202.213]
  8     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  ae1-10.tkbr12.global-gateway.net.nz [202.50.232.37]
  9   136 ms   132 ms   136 ms  xe-0-0-7-3.sjbr3.global-gateway.net.nz [202.50.232.18]
 10   137 ms   137 ms   137 ms  ae0.pabr5.global-gateway.net.nz [203.96.120.74]
 11   134 ms   134 ms   135 ms  ix-xe-8-2-5-0.tcore1.PDI-Palo-Alto.as6453.net [66.198.127.49]
 12   134 ms   134 ms   134 ms  if-ae-2-2.tcore2.PDI-Palo-Alto.as6453.net [66.198.127.2]
 13   139 ms   138 ms   139 ms  if-ae-5-2.tcore2.SQN-San-Jose.as6453.net [64.86.21.1]
 14   134 ms   133 ms   133 ms  if-ae-1-2.tcore1.SQN-San-Jose.as6453.net [63.243.205.1]
 15   138 ms   141 ms   136 ms  192.205.37.69
 16   142 ms   141 ms   142 ms  cr1.sffca.ip.att.net [12.122.114.54]
 17   141 ms   140 ms   140 ms  12.123.244.5
 18     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 19     *        *        *     Request timed out.

 

 

never actually gets to that IP.





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  Reply # 1610892 12-Aug-2016 19:05
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If you want to trace back, ipchicken is showing the external IP as 219.88.237.177 at the moment.





Richard rich.ms



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  Reply # 1610924 12-Aug-2016 19:52
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Great, thanks for the info!

 

Is there a way (using your own VPN) to achieve similar results to programs such as WTFast and BattlePing? And yeah, routing is a very frustrating thing, thats for sure. 

I'm not sure why it's not able to get past a certain hop, that seems weird. Looks like BigPipe are using good routes though!

Also @richms, whats CGNAT? 


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  Reply # 1610925 12-Aug-2016 19:55
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ctucks:

 

Great, thanks for the info!

 

Is there a way (using your own VPN) to achieve similar results to programs such as WTFast and BattlePing? And yeah, routing is a very frustrating thing, thats for sure. 

I'm not sure why it's not able to get past a certain hop, that seems weird. Looks like BigPipe are using good routes though!

 

 

 

 

Absolutely, as above i do exactly this.

 

 

 

In my case, i terminate multiple VPN endpoints on my router and route ip ranges through that endpoint.

 

Due to how i do the setup, fallover back to the default gateway is there for if the VPN drops.

 

 

 

On an average home router however, you may be pushing your luck. Likely it is achievable using windows routing, but i have never really looked into that.





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.




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  Reply # 1610947 12-Aug-2016 20:05
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hio77:

 

ctucks:

 

Great, thanks for the info!

 

Is there a way (using your own VPN) to achieve similar results to programs such as WTFast and BattlePing? And yeah, routing is a very frustrating thing, thats for sure. 

I'm not sure why it's not able to get past a certain hop, that seems weird. Looks like BigPipe are using good routes though!

 

 

 

 

Absolutely, as above i do exactly this.

 

 

 

In my case, i terminate multiple VPN endpoints on my router and route ip ranges through that endpoint.

 

Due to how i do the setup, fallover back to the default gateway is there for if the VPN drops.

 

 

 

On an average home router however, you may be pushing your luck. Likely it is achievable using windows routing, but i have never really looked into that.

 



Sounds a little complicated. Right now we're using the Netcomm NF4V that Orcon supplied us with. I'm not sure what kind of VPN capabilities it has, but regardless, that's a little out of my depth as far as internet knowledge is concerned. Are there any key words / processes that you can request of your ISP to tinker with routing? or is it, like mentioned above, very out of my control? 


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  Reply # 1610948 12-Aug-2016 20:06
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out of your control


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  Reply # 1610949 12-Aug-2016 20:07
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ctucks:

 

Sounds a little complicated. Right now we're using the Netcomm NF4V that Orcon supplied us with. I'm not sure what kind of VPN capabilities it has, but regardless, that's a little out of my depth as far as internet knowledge is concerned. Are there any key words / processes that you can request of your ISP to tinker with routing? or is it, like mentioned above, very out of my control? 

 

 

Definitely a little bit too much for a NF4V.

 

 

 

I would recommend a well written email to the NOC team, include as much detail without it being simply a wall of pointless tests.

 

Going through Customer support is most likely to get death ears.

 

 

 

As I said above, your most likely not to have any positive result however.





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.


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  Reply # 1610951 12-Aug-2016 20:11
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Bigpipe UFB on WiFi

 

 

 

traceroute to 12.129.222.10 (12.129.222.10), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets

 

1  192.168.5.254 (192.168.5.254)  4.018 ms  6.770 ms  9.151 ms

 

2  100.68.x.x (100.68.x.x)  8.995 ms  13.387 ms  9.391 ms

 

3  * * *

 

4  * * *

 

5  * * *

 

6  ae11-201.tkbr11.global-gateway.net.nz (122.56.118.149)  14.328 ms  9.214 ms  9.020 ms

 

7  ae0-10.tkbr12.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.105)  5.970 ms  7.563 ms  7.050 ms

 

8  203.96.120.142 (203.96.120.142)  142.141 ms

 

    xe-0-0-7-3.sjbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.18)  138.525 ms  132.728 ms

 

9  ae0-10.lebr8.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.42)  135.080 ms

 

    ae3-10.lebr7.global-gateway.net.nz (122.56.127.26)  135.562 ms

 

    ae0-10.lebr8.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.42)  137.842 ms

 

10  las-b21-link.telia.net (62.115.145.206)  149.736 ms  159.535 ms  144.787 ms

 

11  att-ic-153025-las-bb1.c.telia.net (80.239.193.214)  145.100 ms  152.634 ms  147.005 ms

 

12  cr2.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.129.98)  146.186 ms  147.810 ms

 

    att-ic-153025-las-bb1.c.telia.net (80.239.193.214)  151.130 ms

 

13  12.123.249.73 (12.123.249.73)  140.673 ms  142.840 ms  144.774 ms

 

14  * 12.123.249.73 (12.123.249.73)  143.114 ms *

 

15  * * 12-122-254-230.attens.net (12.122.254.230)  143.640 ms

 

16  mdf001c7613r0004-gig-12-1.lax1.attens.net (12.129.193.246)  143.629 ms

 

    206.16.68.50 (206.16.68.50)  143.478 ms

 

    12.122.251.190 (12.122.251.190)  142.936 ms

 

17  * 206.16.68.50 (206.16.68.50)  145.257 ms *

 

18  * * *

 

19  * * *

 

20  * * *

 

21  * * *

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

traceroute to 12.129.222.10 (12.129.222.10), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets

 

1  192.168.5.254 (192.168.5.254)  5.252 ms  4.311 ms  2.895 ms

 

2  100.68.x.x (100.68.x.x)  7.299 ms  8.052 ms  10.264 ms

 

3  * * *

 

4  * * *

 

5  * * *

 

6  ae11-201.tkbr11.global-gateway.net.nz (122.56.118.149)  9.890 ms  16.936 ms  14.528 ms

 

7  ae0-10.tkbr12.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.105)  7.769 ms  7.848 ms  9.113 ms

 

8  xe-0-0-7-3.sjbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.18)  135.111 ms

 

    203.96.120.142 (203.96.120.142)  140.308 ms

 

    xe-0-0-7-3.sjbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.18)  131.684 ms

 

9  ae0-10.lebr8.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.42)  130.795 ms

 

    ae3-10.lebr7.global-gateway.net.nz (122.56.127.26)  137.181 ms

 

    ae0-10.lebr8.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.42)  137.089 ms

 

10  las-b21-link.telia.net (62.115.145.206)  149.871 ms  142.764 ms  158.194 ms

 

11  att-ic-153025-las-bb1.c.telia.net (80.239.193.214)  145.715 ms  146.500 ms  151.931 ms

 

12  cr2.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.129.98)  151.680 ms  146.879 ms  151.093 ms

 

13  cr2.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.129.98)  156.409 ms

 

    12.123.249.73 (12.123.249.73)  147.794 ms  141.686 ms

 

14  * * *

 

15  12-122-254-230.attens.net (12.122.254.230)  140.556 ms * *

 

16  mdf001c7613r0004-gig-12-1.lax1.attens.net (12.129.193.246)  144.987 ms

 

    206.16.68.46 (206.16.68.46)  210.737 ms

 

    mdf001c7613r0003-gig-10-1.lax1.attens.net (12.129.193.242)  148.632 ms

 

17  * * *

 

18  * * *

 

19  * * *

 

20  * * *


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