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  # 1298105 5-May-2015 09:45
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Ah the old health service debate.  Here are some facts, like it or lump it - its reality

- There is limited money
- Service creep is consuming more of this money
- Politicians tell people what they want to hear, not the honest truth that is 'We cant do the best for everyone, the budgets dont allow it'.  People need to either pay more tax, pay for the services they receive or accept the health service in NZ for what it is.
- We are not alone, the NHS in the UK is suffering similar problems 

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  # 1298111 5-May-2015 09:51
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itxtme: Ah the old health service debate.  Here are some facts, like it or lump it - its reality

- There is limited money
- Service creep is consuming more of this money
- Politicians tell people what they want to hear, not the honest truth that is 'We cant do the best for everyone, the budgets dont allow it'.  People need to either pay more tax, pay for the services they receive or accept the health service in NZ for what it is.
- We are not alone, the NHS in the UK is suffering similar problems 


Pretty much this.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1298117 5-May-2015 09:56
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itxtme: Ah the old health service debate.  Here are some facts, like it or lump it - its reality

- There is limited money
- Service creep is consuming more of this money
- Politicians tell people what they want to hear, not the honest truth that is 'We cant do the best for everyone, the budgets dont allow it'.  People need to either pay more tax, pay for the services they receive or accept the health service in NZ for what it is.
- We are not alone, the NHS in the UK is suffering similar problems 


I absolutely agree with that.  If most people were honestly asked if they wanted tax cuts, or medical care when they needed it, I suspect they'd go for medical care.  But we don't get asked that, we just get a unified plan to "get the government out of debt." So we cut government spending for ideological reasons, and make the recession worse.  *sigh*

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  # 1298126 5-May-2015 10:07
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I understand the arguments from either side, but the bottom line is dentistry is fn expensive.

It does make me wonder if there are wider things that we could be doing to support this area, given it really is a legitimate health sector area, potentially more so than some other presently funded areas.
Service creep is real, but that's a managerial aspect.

Getting a filling in a tooth is often around the $300 range and for many families that's more money than is just laying around.  Go too far and fillings aren't options anymore, and you're down to pulling the tooth out of thousands on root canals and crowns.
It's just so expensive that we should probably be looking at why.
Can we offer more incentives for training, reducing loans if you stay in the country etc, would this help? 

As it stands the OP's question is valid, as is the statement that there's just not a lot of government money to splash around either.
Given there is only a small percentage of the country that actually earns any money and pays tax, there's not a lot to play with.
That said though, do we need to start looking after ourselves for a few hard years, and stop funding anything non core, such as Americas cup campaigns etc.
And then we enter into the politics debate...



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  # 1298128 5-May-2015 10:14
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tdgeek:
Geektastic: Regular checkups and basic fillings etc are as much a part of healthcare as fixing broken bones and hernia repair I would say.

Sure, getting that Hasselhoff Smile is vanity dentistry, but basic checkups and maintenance do not seem any less a part of healthcare than going to your GP - which only costs about $50.

It just seems odd that one kind of medical attention is more or less free at the point of use, and the other isn't - despite their interactions.

For example, in my case a dental bill of (say) $500 a year could prevent a medical emergency costing tens of thousands. I am sure there are other instances of similar nature.

I'm not really arguing one way or the other, merely curious as to why it has been left out when attending a GP has not. Seems illogical.


Scratch hernia repair, thats not covered ny health system now. Unless you are in writhing pain, you need to pay circa 5-8k

Perhaps dentistry is seen the same, its not life threatening, so live with it or pay for it


Mine was repaired in Wairarapa Hospital just last year...





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  # 1298130 5-May-2015 10:15
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Jaxson: And then we enter into the politics debate...


I think it takes about 5 seconds for this to become a political debate. It is assigning priority to government spending - and then it becomes a tax discussion.

I think everyone would agree full, free healthcare for everyone would be great - but noone wants to pay for it.

The question about offering people lower tax vs medical care when they need it - I believe you are massively underestimating greed. I would say the majority would choose lower tax - immediate benefit vs possible later benefit. I don't agree with that, but it wouldn't surprise me.







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  # 1298133 5-May-2015 10:19
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mattwnz:
joker97: because our health care model seems to be the one of the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff catching people who fell down instead of the one with barriers up the top to prevent people from falling down?

I don't know. i don't understand health care models


Have you watched Michael Moores documentary on the US health system. It will make you glad that we live in NZ. But it looks like the UK and Canadian systems maybe better than ours. In the UK it showed a cashier at the hospital, but they actually gave out money to pay for peoples taxi home.


The UK NHS is the largest civilian employer in the West, IIRC. Over 500,000 staff or some such nonsense!

It works more or less, but lordy it costs a lot of money to run. Somewhere approaching the equivalent of NZ $300 billion...!





 
 
 
 


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  # 1298136 5-May-2015 10:23
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Geektastic:
mattwnz:
joker97: because our health care model seems to be the one of the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff catching people who fell down instead of the one with barriers up the top to prevent people from falling down?

I don't know. i don't understand health care models


Have you watched Michael Moores documentary on the US health system. It will make you glad that we live in NZ. But it looks like the UK and Canadian systems maybe better than ours. In the UK it showed a cashier at the hospital, but they actually gave out money to pay for peoples taxi home.


The UK NHS is the largest civilian employer in the West, IIRC. Over 500,000 staff or some such nonsense!

It works more or less, but lordy it costs a lot of money to run. Somewhere approaching the equivalent of NZ $300 billion...!


So you can't really win:

Argument 1:
Our Public Health system is lacking! We need more people and money!

 

Argument 2:
Our Public Health system is too large and expensive! We need tax cuts!



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  # 1298137 5-May-2015 10:23
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ajobbins: The NHS in the UK has funded dental for a long time with good results (or as I understand). They are now looking (or already have?) stripping much of the dental from the NHS to try and save money.


Yes true. It's been getting harder to get NHS dentistry for at least 20 years or so.

However, heart surgery is expensive (mine would have been $50k at least) and we fund that - I just can't quite see why dentistry has somehow become a luxury optional extra.







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  # 1298146 5-May-2015 10:28
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wasabi2k:
Jaxson: And then we enter into the politics debate...


I think it takes about 5 seconds for this to become a political debate. It is assigning priority to government spending - and then it becomes a tax discussion.

I think everyone would agree full, free healthcare for everyone would be great - but noone wants to pay for it.

The question about offering people lower tax vs medical care when they need it - I believe you are massively underestimating greed. I would say the majority would choose lower tax - immediate benefit vs possible later benefit. I don't agree with that, but it wouldn't surprise me.






You can adjust what you spend money on without increasing the total - but that too will rapidly become political.

It would be interesting to see a model where everyone gets, say, $750 of 'free' dentistry per year or something so at least basic maintenance was covered.





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  # 1298211 5-May-2015 11:05
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I asked my dentist why he charges so much and this is what he told me: by the time he'd done 5 years dentistry school and set up his practice he owed a whopping 1 million bucks. well really that's alot of money so how come you can go to Queenstown every year for a ski trip  then and to Hawaii for two weeks a year with the whole family 

Also try using your Community services card at the dentist and get told it doesn't make it cheaper I thought dentist were a community service 

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  # 1298216 5-May-2015 11:10
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Athlonite: I asked my dentist why he charges so much and this is what he told me: by the time he'd done 5 years dentistry school and set up his practice he owed a whopping 1 million bucks. well really that's alot of money so how come you can go to Queenstown every year for a ski trip  then and to Hawaii for two weeks a year with the whole family 

 


What was his answer to that ?





My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government


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  # 1298252 5-May-2015 11:44
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itxtme: Ah the old health service debate.  Here are some facts, like it or lump it - its reality

- There is limited money
- Service creep is consuming more of this money
- Politicians tell people what they want to hear, not the honest truth that is 'We cant do the best for everyone, the budgets dont allow it'.  People need to either pay more tax, pay for the services they receive or accept the health service in NZ for what it is.
- We are not alone, the NHS in the UK is suffering similar problems 


Add an ageing population to the list. And a group that is living longer and longer. I have a couple of elderly relatives who have had some seriously major operations very late in life, including one that required air ambulance transport to another hospital for emergency surgery followed by a lengthy stay in hospital. We often spend a LOT of money keeping very old people alive, and this seems to be on the increase.




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  # 1298271 5-May-2015 11:48
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Geektastic:
wasabi2k:
Jaxson: And then we enter into the politics debate...


I think it takes about 5 seconds for this to become a political debate. It is assigning priority to government spending - and then it becomes a tax discussion.

I think everyone would agree full, free healthcare for everyone would be great - but noone wants to pay for it.

The question about offering people lower tax vs medical care when they need it - I believe you are massively underestimating greed. I would say the majority would choose lower tax - immediate benefit vs possible later benefit. I don't agree with that, but it wouldn't surprise me.






You can adjust what you spend money on without increasing the total - but that too will rapidly become political.

It would be interesting to see a model where everyone gets, say, $750 of 'free' dentistry per year or something so at least basic maintenance was covered.


So we just need to reallocate up to $3,353,250,000, based on the 2013 population.

Easy.

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  # 1298275 5-May-2015 11:51
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SepticSceptic:
Athlonite: I asked my dentist why he charges so much and this is what he told me: by the time he'd done 5 years dentistry school and set up his practice he owed a whopping 1 million bucks. well really that's alot of money so how come you can go to Queenstown every year for a ski trip  then and to Hawaii for two weeks a year with the whole family 

 


What was his answer to that ?



Possibly the Dentists have decided to have their "conferences and continuing education" in those locations :-D

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