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  Reply # 2165959 23-Jan-2019 09:16
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MurrayM:

 

Fred99:

 

I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of tax/excise and "commercialisation".  Governments get too fond of the revenue, and regardless of some public statements about social responsibility, the alcohol (and tobacco) industry spent a century lobbying politicians.  Their objective - to sell as much of the stuff as they possibly can.  It's a business - primary objective is to make a profit, and as much profit as you can.  I can't see a huge difference between that (commercialisation which will inevitably end up being controlled by major corporates) and the gangs.  The corporates will be much less prone to kill people, but much better at marketing. 

 

Decriminalisation shouldn't require "commercialisation".  I'm pretty sure you can grow a perfectly satisfactory cannabis plant if you want with about the same ease as growing a tomato, locking it in to a revenue model (for govt and corporates) similar to how we ended up with the present alcohol disaster is plain stupid.

 

 

I think there's a large group of people that would only accept cannabis reform if it was regulated and taxed. They see that as a benefit (increased income for the government that can be spent on health, etc) and wouldn't be interested in change unless they can see benefits like this.

 

 

I think that you're right, but that they're being told this by people with vested interest in ensuring that it happens that way.


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  Reply # 2165968 23-Jan-2019 09:46
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I am trying really hard not to do what I sometimes accuse the reform doubters of doing – making up my mind in advance and refusing to consider the evidence.

 

I am convinced that reform is not a bad idea. Why? Because the current situation is a disaster. The only people benefiting from cannabis are the criminal elements. Whoever you buy it from will probably also try to sell you something else. If it is a gateway drug, that is where the gate is.

 

Anecdotal accounts strongly suggest that at least some people derive great medical benefit from it. The accounts are anecdotal because research has been stymied by its illegal status. And people enjoy getting high. What is so terrible about that? At least they don’t go out breaking things and starting fights. I will take a stoner over a drunk any day.

 

There seems to be a rigid mind-set amongst the doubters. I suspect they made up their minds long ago and are just looking for excuses to justify it. Some people just don’t want others to have a good time, unless they can somehow regulate and control it. I accept that there are legitimate concerns about cannabis. It does seem to have adverse effects on the young and the mentally vulnerable. I think this should be researched further. But at this time, on the basis of our reality and what is happening elsewhere in the world, I remain convinced that the least harm would be done by legalising it.

 

What is our reality? Well, it seems to be that we already have one of the highest rates of cannabis consumption in the world. Our gangs are thriving and the profits go into subsiding even more profitable drugs, like meth and cocaine, along with other illegal activities. In the meantime, their customers and those with the audacity to grow their own end up with criminal records that undermine any chance of a future that they might have had, so boffins can point to them and exclaim that cannabis destroys motivation to succeed. There is enormous dishonesty and hypocrisy about this, admittedly on both sides of the debate, but especially the no side.

 

National are trying to be clever about this. They pretend that their MPs will be given a conscience vote on the matter. They say they are not necessarily opposed, but then they add that they will ‘probably’ vote against it. Of course they will. They just want to create an impression that they are giving it fair consideration.

 

Paula Bennet says she has tried it and it made her sleepy. How progressive of her! Of course, she is still going to vote against it. Um – isn’t she supposed to consider the evidence and listen to a year of debates and public opinion first?

 

All of this is a pretence to display National’s ‘progressive’ side. They aren’t pre-judging. They will gravely weigh all the evidence - and then they will vote against it. After all, that’s what National does. If they weren’t such a mob of lying hypocrites, I might vote for them one day. Yeah, right.

 

I believe that some form of legalisation is by far the lesser of evils. But I can’t prove that. It is just what ‘feels’ right to me. So am I making my mind up and refusing to consider the evidence? I think not. I hope not. I will try to remain open and fair about this. Again, I do not maintain that cannabis is completely harmless, but neither are a lot of things, and I remain convinced that keeping it illegal is the worse option.

 

As to how it should be legalised, I am less certain. Probably there should be some form of regulation to protect the young and vulnerable, though I can’t think of anything that would actually work. But the current situation doesn’t work either, so I doubt things will be any worse. I guess it will be similar to alcohol. It might be a good idea if it could be done in stages, but I doubt that would work either. At least things will be out in the open, and we will have a better sense of what the problems actually are.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


 
 
 
 




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  Reply # 2167515 25-Jan-2019 17:32
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Rikkitic:

 

I am trying really hard not to do what I sometimes accuse the reform doubters of doing – making up my mind in advance and refusing to consider the evidence.

 



Again I agree.

The reason for me is, if we do this analysis prior to reform we will go nowhere ever as medical studies are conflicting.

Id rather take the real world, and hire a consultant from the California cannabis reform and have them advise our government on how to deal with things like underage, medicinal use, strain use for medicinals (clearly CBDs).

 

But that leaves recreational out which Im not for, I think an adult human being can decide whether they enjoy smoking a flower or not. Some people dont like alcohol. some dont like opiates. Give people options to the lowest harming therapeutic and recreational of the 3 and let them decide if its for them or not.

Clearly no smoking before work if it impears your function to work, which is already the law, but some strains may enhance some jobs, like artists. Where driving a crane, not so much.

I spoke to my friend today I hadnt seen in a year, owns a couple chemists in Aus but is a kiwi. He thinks the referendum is only about medicinal cannabis, ie CBDs. I had to explain to him what cannabis is like to use and explain how much less harmful vaporising some indica would be for someone with lower back spasms which cause their discs to push into their spinal cords requiring opiates. But he is still under this delusion Nixon set up throwing MJ in with Heroin with the war on drugs.

Clearly strains are more potent now, but so is theraputic effect and recreational, meaning you need less and or its more effective than when the culture of being a hippy was to sit around smoking cabbage all day.

For me personally I didnt like pot when I was a teen at parties, it heightened my anxiety, until I tried it once more and I was relaxed, clearly I had smoked a different type of the plant on the two occasions. If I could vape that second experience now I guarantee I could drop 3 of the synthetic medications Im taking.

So how do we change public perception of pot being this Meth like drug to being more in line with Alcohol ?(even though its clearly less harmful to society, people can only relate to what they know)

This pre ref education needs to start soon, way before the referendum. Does anybody know if the MJ lobbyists have anything planned propaganda wise?

What Propaganda channels are open to breweries? Not TV, not radio, I dont know as I quit drinking ages ago due to ill health effects.

 

Rikkitic:

 

I will take a stoner over a drunk any day.

 



Not to dinner bro, that might be an expensive shout, stoner "Ill have 3 eye fillets, 2 bowls of these fancy fries, a bowl of mash potato with cheese, and a couple dozen bluff oysters to start" rofl ;-p

Most definitely. Without question Alcohol is far more addictive and capable of making a large percentage of people aggressive in situations they wouldnt if they hadnt been drinking. It turns from a downer like valium/indica pot, to an upper level or possibly worse than meth once the biochemical process has occured. thats why really, only a few beers are enjoyable, after that people are chasing the original buzz but what the body does is create a worse and worse reaction in the opposite manner.




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  Reply # 2167524 25-Jan-2019 17:49
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Does this Bennet woman have a degree in a medical field? If not how the hell do we have ministers in critical positions which clearly require that experience, not opinion. It would be like the finance minister not having a financial background/education.

Another question, how many of our current prison inmates are there for MJ use or growing related offenses?

If every inmate cost $60k per year, I can see why Police take leniency of the flower/plant.

I saw a comment on stuff about that lady who got caught with 45 plants being given a warning. The person said something like Prison is a reform school. Are some people that dumb they dont realise Prison is a crime school if anything.

Going there for pot is simply ludicrous. Yet somebody driving multiple times DUI doesnt go there.

For every medical cost and imprisonment saved by cannabis, it should be put toward education of the lower socio economic groups and improving our embarrassing health system.

I think the debt National has got the country in via GFC loan and now by lending for mortgages and expecting this to pay for Baby Boomer retirement is just absurd policy, Gareth Morgan is spot on in regard to solving the pension issue, but of course Baby Boomers wont do the right thing by the rest of us and vote such policies. So for me I went Top but looking at Greens a lot of their policies actually make sense. Im a passionate ecologist and enviromentalist as well. I think the new generation will start swinging away from the 2 big parties. Jacinda for me is not what I want to see, too inexperienced, too naive, too blundering with her words, but I understand that to get this referendum we had to allow her to be PM.

Green Party policy on cannabis, I highlighted what for me is doing, not analysis paralysis and what I meant by employing a US/Canadian consultant.

 

Cannabis (including medicinal cannabis)

 

  • Make cannabis legal for personal use, including possession and cultivation.
  • Introduce a legal age limit for personal use.
  • Assess evidence from overseas jurisdictions with legal cannabis markets to determine the best model for New Zealand.
  • While waiting for broader law change for cannabis, remove penalties for any person with a terminal illness, chronic or debilitating condition to cultivate, possess or use cannabis and/or cannabis products for therapeutic purposes, with the support of a registered medical practitioner.
  • Accelerate the process by which medical cannabis products are licensed for use.
  • Lower barriers for manufacturers to submit new cannabis products for funding applications to PHARMAC.

One part of medicinal I hate is the use of just CBDs. Yes they should be the largest portion, but you also need THC for stimulating an uplifting mood effect for those with terminal illness or pain. I have a video on youtube that shows 5 well known strains in the US for medicinal use that can be vaped, meaning not letting the big man tell me I have to pay $40 a week just for CBD extract.




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  Reply # 2167561 25-Jan-2019 18:07
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These two videos overlap some of the strains

Lower back pain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo2lsakHrIA

 

Anxiety

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L6S6OPIggg

 

 


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  Reply # 2167643 25-Jan-2019 20:45
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If I were asked two years ago if I supported reform I would have said absolutely no. I recall saying it here and I am @Rikkitic will recall this. I have changed and believe in full legal use of Cannabis.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 




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  Reply # 2167670 26-Jan-2019 00:43
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I like canda's approach of 30gm's per person, allowed to grow for personal use (Im not sure on how many plants as some autoflowrers will produce 120gms). Either way I like that they leave adults to be adults, provide education, leave parenting to parenting, and prevent sale to minors.

Common f...n sense.

If they dont pass this as referendum then the government, that Bennett woman, has a duty of care to study the deaths related to alcohol, ie OD, drink drive, violence, suicide, liver failure and prohibit the sale and use of Alcohol as cannabis is not even probably 1% as damaging and costly to society as alcohol, yet we let really dumb ignorant people bully us into what we can and cant consume as adults.

Conspirators would say they allow coffee to stimulate us during the week to keep worikng and alcohol to sedate us on the weekends, thus keeping perfect working pigeons.

Forget rigged science studies for and against, apply common sense and large annecdotal reviews and scientifically grown strains to medicate those of us that want muscle and pain relief without taking immunosuppressants (pharmaceuticals or alcohol) which cause auto immune disease like MS (yes Bennett sounds like she wants us to have MS instead of vaping pot), and strains for those that enjoy the buzz, big or small.

Its just insulting this Bennett person is even in government when jacinda is only there due to this referendum, so whether its this year or next, I expect major backlash if they try to stall it due to their personal opinions/experience and not listen to where the world is heading.

I take another natural (not a herb but an extract from a farm animal organ) medication that replaces a pharmaceutical one and knocks it for 6. I will also say some natural medications are piss weak and pointless. But cannabis is not one of them.


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  Reply # 2167687 26-Jan-2019 07:36
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TeaLeaf: Does this Bennet woman have a degree in a medical field? If not how the hell do we have ministers in critical positions which clearly require that experience, not opinion. It would be like the finance minister not having a financial background/education.

 

Its just insulting this Bennett person is even in government when jacinda is only there due to this referendum, so whether its this year or next, I expect major backlash if they try to stall it due to their personal opinions/experience and not listen to where the world is heading.

 

I can't see how it's Insulting that Paula Bennett's in government?
She's an experienced politician - and elected to her (Upper Harbour) seat rather than being a list MP.

 

I wouldn't think need a medical degree's required to debate legalisation. Rather than being experts in a specialist field, politicians do need to be able to understand evidence supplied by experts, theoretically then making evidence based decisions. Of course in the real world a Spokesman's only got limited influence, and is just going to be stating the agreed views of the Party - based on what polls of their constituents show will get them votes..

There are a couple of things that I think actually stand in her favour to be National's Spokesperson on Cannabis reform - she's admitted trying cannabis herself - and won't be taken in by the whole 'Reefer Madness' scenario.. she identifies as Maori (who'll likely be the most affected group) she's been Minister of Social Development, Youth Affairs, Disability Issues.. a background that should help her understand some of the issues.

 Jacinda (along with the Coaltion she - & Winston - lead) is certainly not just 'there' due to this referendum.. If anything you can thank Winston Peters for a referendum even being an option..

Either way legalisation of Cannabis in New Zealand requires robust and balanced debate.

With increased availability of Cannabis there absolutely WILL be some negative effects.
The extent - and effect on society - of those is what needs to be addressed and discussed.
You can't just see it as the 'good' side (the side you agree with) vs the 'bad' side (the side you don't agree with)
 

I like canda's approach of 30gm's per person, allowed to grow for personal use (Im not sure on how many plants as some autoflowrers will produce 120gms). Either way I like that they leave adults to be adults, provide education, leave parenting to parenting, and prevent sale to minors.


The "Dunedin study" showed two important things  – that there are likely negative outcomes with young people smoking pot, and that kids are doing it legal or not. How to prevent youths accessing Cannabis has been one of the big – and ongoing - issues with legalisation in many US States and in Canada.

Preventing underage access through regulation of sale and supply, and education of minors about the potential dangers seems to be key.

The reduction in tobacco use happened not because it was made illegal - but through a ban on advertising, increasing price, and keeping products out of sight to reduce impulse purchases - plus a graphic campaign of education on the detrimental effects of smoking increasing public awareness of the risks. 

If Cannabis is legalised a similar system of controls & campaign of education will have to be started, and it's here that New Zealand has the ability to learn from and adapt the policies Canada and other countries have put in place.

One thing Canada learned from Colorado and other States was to hold off on legalising edibles - Cannabis infused cookies, lollies and chocolates.
In US States which initially legalised edible products with Cannabis a small increase in ER visits was mostly because of these.
The production of edibles remains illegal - and is strictly policed. (funny story here)

Some US States - such as Colorado - chose to class supplying a minor (aged below 21) with Cannabis as a misdemeanor offence - with penalties  similar to supplying alcohol to a minor. Canada's allowed a lower age of access (federally it's 17) but each Province has the ability to set a limit at or above that- they've all chosen 18 or 19.

Penalties - much more severe than alcohol - have been introduced for supplying minors (up to 14 years jail for providing cannabis to youth).

They've introduced almost draconian laws against advertising aimed at youth – up to $5 million or 3 years in jail.

And increased penalties for drug-impaired driving (along with lowered limits of both drugs and alcohol) have been introduced.

Provinces and cities have the final say on Cannabis retail locations, the actual rules of sale generally applied through Liquor Control Boards.

In retail stores there are thorough checks of ID at doors, no promotion, packaging or labelling that could be considered appealing to young people is allowed.  Cannabis products are not allowed to be visible to the public, retailers must have a 100 meter buffer from schools and health care facilities etc.
Shops may not sell alcohol or tobacco along with cannabis, consumption of Cannabis is banned in vehicles – like alcohol it must be in a closed container.
The Cannabis that is sold is strictly regulated by Health Canada - production and labelling requiring accurate classification of strains and content.
The consensus seems to be that pricing a bit above the 'street price' of illegal Cannabis works best. people are still incentivised to buy at licensed retailers but the cost isn't so low that it becomes an impulse buy.

 

You can be sure legalisation's going to require strict rules and a raft of new and amended legislation 
That'll be the government's job, let's hope they get it right as we'll all have to live with the consequences.

 

 


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  Reply # 2167724 26-Jan-2019 08:58
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>Preventing underage access through regulation of sale and supply, and education of minors about the potential dangers seems to be key. 

I personally don't think education seems to work as well as everybody tells us. They have the most horrific pictures on packets of cigarettes, they hide them, and we have been told over and over and over again about the cancer and emphysema and every other risk that tobacco takes however when I see people smoking it is mostly young people. The number of young women especially who are smoking still remains hi. I don't think education is working as advertised.

Thinking about alcohol young people just love getting smashed. We don't seem to have that under control so the idea that will be able to do with cannabis doesn't make sense because we failed with both tobacco and alcohol. However kids already access cannabis, increased education at least might stop some of them so that has to be a good thing.

Look at vaping. Mostly seems to be young people. Vapping also allows higher intake. Worth acigarette you smoke an inch and a half then have a natural stopping point. Vaping you can quietly suck all day ... the equivalent of chain smoking, with no natural breaking point other tbsn batteries and fluid reload. Dangers going down that road.




nunz

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  Reply # 2167740 26-Jan-2019 09:52
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nunz:
I personally don't think education seems to work as well as everybody tells us. They have the most horrific pictures on packets of cigarettes, they hide them, and we have been told over and over and over again about the cancer and emphysema and every other risk that tobacco takes however when I see people smoking it is mostly young people. The number of young women especially who are smoking still remains hi. I don't think education is working as advertised.


You may see some young adults smoking but anti-smoking education has actually been very successful. 
25% of adults smoked in 2007.. now only 16% do.
Youth smoking rates have plummeted and continue to drop..

 

Look at vaping. Mostly seems to be young people. Vapping also allows higher intake. Worth acigarette you smoke an inch and a half then have a natural stopping point. Vaping you can quietly suck all day ... the equivalent of chain smoking, with no natural breaking point other tbsn batteries and fluid reload. Dangers going down that road.

 

Vaping isn't the equivalent of chain smoking at all. E-cigarettes and vaping actually help people quit smoking.
The health outcomes can't even be compared.
Research from Public Health England states e-cigarettes appear to be 95 per cent less harmful than traditional tobacco cigarettes.

 

One of the potential positives of Cannabis Legalisation in Canada is the push to move people away from smoking 'joints' to much less harmful vaping.




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  Reply # 2167956 26-Jan-2019 14:08
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Sidestep:

 

The "Dunedin study" showed two important things  – that there are likely negative outcomes with young people smoking pot, and that kids are doing it legal or not. How to prevent youths accessing Cannabis has been one of the big – and ongoing - issues with legalisation in many US States and in Canada.

Preventing underage access through regulation of sale and supply, and education of minors about the potential dangers seems to be key.

 



This is already a major problem in NZ, I dont know many people who hadnt toked by 12yo. Rich areas, poor areas. Its everywhere. So legislation and legislation will give them some control over what is already readily available.

Sorry what I mean about Benett, not her being an embarassment, I meant that labour is in office only due to this referendum. Does she have a medical background?




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  Reply # 2167967 26-Jan-2019 14:17
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Sidestep:

 

With increased availability of Cannabis there absolutely WILL be some negative effects.
The extent - and effect on society - of those is what needs to be addressed and discussed.
You can't just see it as the 'good' side (the side you agree with) vs the 'bad' side (the side you don't agree with)

 



Such as what? there is no increased availability by making it legal. It just decreases the black market and gives society the benefits of controlling a substance with less black market product.

I totally agree, I want to see bad sides, but I personally can't see any outside educating parents who smoke how to keep the product well secured, cutting of gateways for underage to gain access, putting pressure on older youth to the exact harm it can do for developing brains so we have for example less older brothers letting their little bros have a joint etc. That happens now. But its ignorance on behalf of the older sibling, we need to make sure the youth understand why this flower is unavailable to them and why (not scare them but just educate them).

What else do you perceive as a potential negative?




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  Reply # 2167970 26-Jan-2019 14:21
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Sidestep:

 

 

 

Look at vaping. Mostly seems to be young people. Vapping also allows higher intake. Worth acigarette you smoke an inch and a half then have a natural stopping point. Vaping you can quietly suck all day ... the equivalent of chain smoking, with no natural breaking point other tbsn batteries and fluid reload. Dangers going down that road.

 

Vaping isn't the equivalent of chain smoking at all. E-cigarettes and vaping actually help people quit smoking.
The health outcomes can't even be compared.
Research from Public Health England states e-cigarettes appear to be 95 per cent less harmful than traditional tobacco cigarettes.

 

One of the potential positives of Cannabis Legalisation in Canada is the push to move people away from smoking 'joints' to much less harmful vaping.

 



I think he is confusing vape pens with what they supply Cancer patients with, Vape baloons. But I agree with your points, its about whats put in vapes as well, some vape pen liquids are toxic.

This is an example of one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH5F1iIBNzc

"Its where you place your urrrb lol"

 

 




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  Reply # 2167976 26-Jan-2019 14:31
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Helen Clarke, our only great female politician, good on ya Lady. COMMON F> SENSE

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB8vqwN-sG4

 

 


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  Reply # 2167982 26-Jan-2019 14:35
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TeaLeaf:

 

Helen Clarke, our only great female politician, good on ya Lady. COMMON F> SENSE

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB8vqwN-sG4

 

 

 

 

Wow! No mincing words there. I hope somebody takes this and rubs it into Paula Bennet's face. Then they should make Simon Bridges eat it.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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