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Glurp
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  Reply # 2158019 11-Jan-2019 11:11
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Hammerer:

 

My personal experience is that about half the people who tell me that they are schizophrenic, also tell me that it started after they smoked cannabis in their teens. The one who was most adamant about the connection - he had his first episode that same week - can't testify to that experience because, like many others, he too has killed himself.

 

 

No-one, including me, can make a reasonable reply to a statement like this. Suicide is a tragedy, and anything anyone might say, other than they are sorry, would demean that.

 

Are you a medical professional? How is that you seem to have so much experience of people who are schizophrenic?

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2158023 11-Jan-2019 11:18
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Hammerer:

 

Rikkitic:

 

The preceding is a good post and I do not disagree with the points made. The problem I have is that many people in this debate, especially lawn order types, have had their opinions formed by the years of reefer madness hysteria and have lost their ability to form new ones when presented with other information. I do not believe cannabis is harmless and I do not doubt it affects different people differently. What bothers me is the people who have already made up their minds using this to reinforce their prejudices.

 

 

You say "I do not disagree with points made" and then immediately disparage it by implying that this is more reinforcing of existing prejudices.

 

You also appear to be doing what you are criticising others for: holding opinions that they won't change. There is sufficient evidence to show causality even if you don't think it is "decent evidence that it is true".

 

 

 

 

Heh, I was just about to reply to that post with the exact same reply.

 

Just because people hold deep seated views that won't change, doesn't make those views incorrect or invalid.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2158030 11-Jan-2019 11:26
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Age limit it like alcohol, so only adults with fully formed brains can legally use it.  It's not hard.  A few people who are schizophrenic or suicidal and think it's by association with cannabis (whether accurately or not), shouldn't stop an entire society from making their own choices, just like the few people who crash their cars don't stop everyone from driving on our roads.  Age limit it, put warnings on it, and watch society remain intact because it's not going to trigger the apocalypse.  


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  Reply # 2158034 11-Jan-2019 11:29
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gehenna:

 

Age limit it like alcohol, so only adults with fully formed brains can legally use it.  It's not hard.  A few people who are schizophrenic or suicidal and think it's by association with cannabis (whether accurately or not), shouldn't stop an entire society from making their own choices, just like the few people who crash their cars don't stop everyone from driving on our roads.  Age limit it, put warnings on it, and watch society remain intact because it's not going to trigger the apocalypse.  

 

 

Right, well the moment you "limit" it's legalization, you'll have people who will break the rules. I guess you could argue that people will break the rules now, but you intensify the group(s) who are excluded. 

 

The car argument isn't valid. Cars are pretty much neccessary, pot isn't (for 99% of the population depending on what medical studies you believe). Putting warnings and hideous images on cigarettes did very little to deter smokers.

 

 


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  Reply # 2158037 11-Jan-2019 11:31
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Hammerer:

 

Rikkitic:

 

The preceding is a good post and I do not disagree with the points made. The problem I have is that many people in this debate, especially lawn order types, have had their opinions formed by the years of reefer madness hysteria and have lost their ability to form new ones when presented with other information. I do not believe cannabis is harmless and I do not doubt it affects different people differently. What bothers me is the people who have already made up their minds using this to reinforce their prejudices.

 

 

You say "I do not disagree with points made" and then immediately disparage it by implying that this is more reinforcing of existing prejudices.

 

You also appear to be doing what you are criticising others for: holding opinions that they won't change. There is sufficient evidence to show causality even if you don't think it is "decent evidence that it is true".

 

 

 

Rikkitic:

 

... but everything I have read, heard, and experienced up to now convinces me that making cannabis illegal, especially in the way it has been done, has resulted in far more harm to individuals and society than just letting people do whatever they want with it ever could.

 

You are also attempting to deny the relevance of individual experience in this debate. This is a rhetorical device that seeks to privilege your own views by ignoring the importance of individual experience. This same personal experience that you keep vaunting in the face of other evidence. There are many reasons why your stricture should be ignored. Apart from your prejudice against others testifying to their own experience, the most relevant is that many studies begin because of such experience: somebody notices an event and is interested in investigating the apparent causal link.

 

 

 

To avoid trivialising the tragedy you cite, I have separated my responses. As far as this part goes, I did not disparage anything. I think you misread my comment. 

 

I have already changed my opinion in the face of mounting evidence. I no longer believe, as I once did, that cannabis is relatively harmless for everybody. Especially the more potent stuff that has been artificially bred up in recent years can have a bad effect on some people. I acknowledge that and I believe I have also done so in the other thread. 

 

As far as individual experience goes, maybe you should also ask those who have had their futures ruined or even gone to prison because they were caught smoking a joint. Historically, I believe there has been a massive over-reaction to the real and/or imagined dangers of cannabis use  and many people have suffered unjustly as a result of this. I believe existing laws are misplaced and do more harm than good. If I am presented with compelling evidence to the contrary I am prepared to change my mind, though I also believe as a matter of principle that prohibiting things is never a real solution. At best it just sweeps the problem out of sight for awhile.

 

There will be a referendum on this issue. I think everyone who feels strongly either way should cast a vote and encourage others to do the same. I hope cannabis will be legalised or at least decriminalised. I believe this is the best option. But I will accept whatever the majority decide.

 

I have to go away now. I will respond to any further posts this evening.

 

  

 

   





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2158043 11-Jan-2019 11:33
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I'd agree that no amount of debate or volume of reputable evidence will shift the opinions of many of NZers strongly opposed to a liberalisation of cannabis laws; but equally there'll be those supporting liberalisation who won't shift their views whatever evidence is put in front of them. That's no different to any issue or, more widely, support for political parties in a general election.

 

This doesn't mean that informed, reasoned and detailed debate shouldn't happen.

 

Also, time is on the side of reform - it tends to be older generations that are more opposed to drug law reform, and we all know what happens over time... A significant majority of NZers now appear to agree that possession of weed for personal use should not be criminalised:

 

  •  

    • should be illegal: 31%
  •  

    • should be decriminalised: 32%
  •  

    • should be legal: 35%

(Edit: Source: https://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/cannabis-issues-poll/ )

 

I also agree it's high time (pun intended) that the laws are changed - prohibition never works - but simply making the changes without thinking through the consequences fully (in the context of NZ society, which is so different to that say of the Netherlands) would be folly. At the time I supported the drop of drinking age, but the flow-through results of that have made me far more weary of making such changes without ensuring the appropriate funding is in the right areas and the cultural shifts necessary to make them not a complete f-up can occur.

 

Rather than rushing it through, perhaps the approach signalled by the current government (as I mentioned in an earlier post) is a good one as an initial step - providing the police the discretion not to prosecute for personal use and possession of any drug - allowing more time to get the more comprehensive law changes right.


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  Reply # 2158044 11-Jan-2019 11:35
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networkn:

 

The car argument isn't valid.

 

 

It's valid for the purpose it was conveyed, that the actions of the few shouldn't impact the many. 


gzt

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  Reply # 2158047 11-Jan-2019 11:40
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gehenna:

networkn:


The car argument isn't valid.



It's valid for the purpose it was conveyed, that the actions of the few shouldn't impact the many. 


Def valid for the medical use thread topic.

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  Reply # 2158050 11-Jan-2019 11:47
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I have lived on opiates for 15+ years, it's a half life and it sucks, but I make the best of it.  I go to physio once a week just to address the associated issues (not the root cause), out of my own pocket because I can't get medical insurance.  I'll be damned if a vocal minority are going to tell me how to manage my pain.  I have the means to help myself financially, and I have a support structure around me.  I despair for those who are less fortunate and live in pain.  We need as many options as possible for pain management, hopefully so opiates can be avoided. It's not right to say what is available now is good enough, because what's available is horrible shit and until you've lived on it for years just to function through the day you really have no place imposing your views on others.    


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  Reply # 2158052 11-Jan-2019 11:57
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gehenna:

 

networkn:

 

The car argument isn't valid.

 

 

It's valid for the purpose it was conveyed, that the actions of the few shouldn't impact the many. 

 

 

Well in reality, almost all laws and decisions are made on this basis, to protect the majority from the minority.

 

Murder is illegal, and harmful. The number of people who commit those crimes are very small but we have entire justice systems to deal with it. 

 

 


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  Reply # 2158087 11-Jan-2019 12:04
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gehenna:

 

I have lived on opiates for 15+ years, it's a half life and it sucks, but I make the best of it.  I go to physio once a week just to address the associated issues (not the root cause), out of my own pocket because I can't get medical insurance.  I'll be damned if a vocal minority are going to tell me how to manage my pain.  I have the means to help myself financially, and I have a support structure around me.  I despair for those who are less fortunate and live in pain.  We need as many options as possible for pain management, hopefully so opiates can be avoided. It's not right to say what is available now is good enough, because what's available is horrible stuff and until you've lived on it for years just to function through the day you really have no place imposing your views on others.    

 

 

I support medicinal (for proven relief) and end of life access to canabis in a medical form, to address the issues like yours. I believe the the vast majority of people also would support this (including most Doctors who I have regular interactions with).

 

Your health issues sound terrible and I am *truly* sorry for your suffering. If you were taking canabis right now, in the privacy of your own home, would anyone, including the police truly care? I have personally seen police turn a blind eye to personal canabis use.

 

I do not support everyone having unfetered access to it. 

 

 


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  Reply # 2158093 11-Jan-2019 12:29
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networkn:

 

I do not support everyone having unfetered access to it. 

 

 

Perhaps save that view for the appropriate thread then, since @op posted about pain management.  Turning it into a debate about recreational use is just agitating people who are in pain. 


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  Reply # 2158094 11-Jan-2019 12:35
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networkn:

 

I believe the the vast majority of people also would support this (including most Doctors who I have regular interactions with).

 

 

Umm, if you looked at the info on the survey I linked to above you'd see the actual figures...

 

13% of respondents believe growing and/or using cannabis for pain relief should be illegal; 17% say it should be decriminalised; 70% say it should be legal, so yeah 87% is indeed a 'vast majority'.

 

For terminal illness the figures are 10% / 17% / 72%.

 

But as I quoted earlier, a majority of NZers appear to support providing access to the rest of the population.

 

networkn:

 

I do not support everyone having unfetered access to it. 

 

 

There's a enormous cavern between draconian Singapore-type laws and 'unfettered access' (which I doubt anyone but a few on the fringe would support), so it's unclear as to where you stand on this:

 

  • Status quo (current law, and police sometimes choosing to turning a blind eye, but equally still able to use the Misuse of Drugs Act when it suits them)?
  • The proposed legislative change that would allow police to ignore personal possession/use of any drug?
  • Decriminalisation?

Even full legalisation doesn't equate to 'unfettered access', of course - just like the currently legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco) there are restrictions on sale etc. I suggest such phases aren't helpful to the debate, given they're not only relatively meaningless but also clearly (and emotively) loaded.


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  Reply # 2158098 11-Jan-2019 13:01
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Rikkitic:

 

Hammerer:

 

My personal experience is that about half the people who tell me that they are schizophrenic, also tell me that it started after they smoked cannabis in their teens. The one who was most adamant about the connection - he had his first episode that same week - can't testify to that experience because, like many others, he too has killed himself.

 

 

No-one, including me, can make a reasonable reply to a statement like this. Suicide is a tragedy, and anything anyone might say, other than they are sorry, would demean that.

 

Are you a medical professional? How is that you seem to have so much experience of people who are schizophrenic?

 

 

 

 

Not too sure how, but Hammerer must be the whisperer of the Schizophrenics or work in a public system. 
I only know 2 Skitz people, One is a well known local Devonport man who walks from Devonport to Milford and back talking to him self each day all day. The other is a mate from high school who developed Psychosis and Schizophrenia from an Acid trip then lost the plot and smoked P in Aussie under a bridge for a year.

If you are only exposed to the negative side of health then all you will see is that, it is amazing how the persons position in life can change their views. 
I think you will find most people in NZ have smoked weed at high school, I can tell you at Takapuna Grammar it would have been over 50% of males had regularly used in their attendance and close to 90% who have tried it. Heck, Kids were ripping bongs at lunch time and the teachers didn't care. Out of all the people I know we only had 1 Schizophrenic and that was the one who did acid. 





 


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  Reply # 2158103 11-Jan-2019 13:16
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Just a thought, with chronic severe pain daily the current prescription drugs are just not enough, a scream and tears also do nothing and being angry does not help.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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