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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 2190546 4-Mar-2019 09:44
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Rikkitic:

 

Fred99:

 

Interesting correlation:

 

 

All this says is that people who vote for populists are not very bright or well-informed. No surprises there.

 

 

Read an article yesterday (sorry, no link now) where it shows a growing number of anti-vaxxer supporting posts on alt-right and extreme nationalist websites. Basically these sites atttract these people with this specific content, hoping the visitors will look around the site - which is used as an indocrination platform. And it seems it works as most anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist end up on the extreme side of the discussion, even supporting these populist ideas.





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  Reply # 2190552 4-Mar-2019 09:56
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networkn:

 

There is also other less flattering aspects for it too, but I am saying that not all parents who choose not to Vaxx thier kids are doing so to hurt them deliberately. I have seen and heard a few heart breaking stories of parents who truly felt that had made the right choice, seeing their kids sick and realizing what they had done. I can't imagine the misery that would cause. Sometimes consequences aren't real until they are experienced.

 

 

This is a good point and I don't doubt some parents who genuinely want to do the right thing are mislead. My venom is intended for those who feed on fear and push the propaganda or mindlessly pass it on. I think vaccinations, like all medical procedures, can probably sometimes go wrong or provoke bad reactions (not autism), but that is extremely rare and the good they do far, far outweighs any potential harm. 

 

 





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  Reply # 2190570 4-Mar-2019 10:05
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Rikkitic:

 

Fred99:

 

Interesting correlation:

 

 

All this says is that people who vote for populists are not very bright or well-informed. No surprises there.

 

 

I'm more interested in the correlation in that the anti-vax movement would be a prime target for divisive political interference / propaganda.  Most of those populist beliefs are dangerous to society in some way, but probably appeal to a different demographic.  It increases the base of overall fanatical conspiracy theorists - even though those CTs may be widely divergent.

 

Russian trolls didn't start the anti-vax movement, but it's a perfect target in which to drive a wedge.  For example, the only anti-vaxxer I know personally would run like the wind from any of the usual alt-right causes, but wholeheartedly embraces something just as nutty.  Well-informed? No.  Bright? Despite the obvious strong belief in something I consider to be completely crazy, probably at least as intelligent as the average person.  Both her kids needed hospitalisation for whooping cough.  There's no point in talking to her about it - she's convinced, spends a lot of time "researching" and finding "evidence" to counter anything and everything condemning the anti-vax movement.


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  Reply # 2190573 4-Mar-2019 10:08
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freitasm:

 

Read an article yesterday (sorry, no link now) where it shows a growing number of anti-vaxxer supporting posts on alt-right and extreme nationalist websites. Basically these sites atttract these people with this specific content, hoping the visitors will look around the site - which is used as an indocrination platform. And it seems it works as most anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist end up on the extreme side of the discussion, even supporting these populist ideas.

 

 

Yep.


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  Reply # 2190591 4-Mar-2019 10:38
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Fred99:

 

I'm more interested in the correlation in that the anti-vax movement would be a prime target for divisive political interference / propaganda.  Most of those populist beliefs are dangerous to society in some way, but probably appeal to a different demographic.  It increases the base of overall fanatical conspiracy theorists - even though those CTs may be widely divergent.

 

Russian trolls didn't start the anti-vax movement, but it's a perfect target in which to drive a wedge.  For example, the only anti-vaxxer I know personally would run like the wind from any of the usual alt-right causes, but wholeheartedly embraces something just as nutty.  Well-informed? No.  Bright? Despite the obvious strong belief in something I consider to be completely crazy, probably at least as intelligent as the average person.  Both her kids needed hospitalisation for whooping cough.  There's no point in talking to her about it - she's convinced, spends a lot of time "researching" and finding "evidence" to counter anything and everything condemning the anti-vax movement.

 

 

I have a friend who is similar. She is a lovely, generous person but she embraces every crazy 'alternative' idea that comes along. I don't know her specific thoughts about vaccination because we both try to avoid those kinds of discussions to prevent unnecessary strife. We have agreed to disagree on some things. But it mystifies me how otherwise intelligent people are so quick to dump something that has consistently proven its value over many years in favour of a crackpot idea that has been completely discredited. 

 

 





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gzt

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  Reply # 2190670 4-Mar-2019 13:19
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Gurezaemon:

gzt: Amazon Prime removes antivax documentaries from streaming service:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolineodonovan/amazon-removes-anti-vaccine-videos


And as always, removing this type of content makes the believers hunker down and feeds upon their sense of persecution.


"See? This is proof that big pharma is scared of what we have to say, so we must be right!"


I saw a second news item later saying that these were still available just removed from search results, so not entirely censorship as in banning if that's the case.

I haven't seen on but I'm sure they are convincing to many people who have no background in the topic and no balancing information.

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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 2191151 5-Mar-2019 11:00
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I have received this today:

 

 

Danish researchers have found further evidence the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccination does not increase the risk for autism.

 

The new study also shows the vaccine does not trigger or increase the risk of autism in children who are more susceptible to the developmental disorder, including those whose siblings have autism.

The nationwide study looked at all Danish children born between 1999 and 2010; more than half a million in total. There was also no clustering of autism cases following vaccination.

Here are some experts comments:

 

Dr Helen Petousis-Harris, Senior Lecturer, Vaccinology, University of Auckland, comments:

 

"The now long since retracted article that proposed the MMR vaccine caused autism based on the purported claims of eight parents has continued to generate scares more than 20-years later. Since that time high-quality research from multiple quarters quickly confirmed there was absolutely no association between the vaccine and autism, the nails went in the coffin one after another in fairly quick succession with a 2014 meta-analysis (that pools together several studies into an even bigger study) concluding no association. Five of those studies included involved 1,256,407 children. More recent studies continue to reinforce the safety of the vaccine.

 

"We know through modern technologies such as brain imaging and genomics that autism begins long before birth. It is well established that autism has a complex genetic component with many genes implicated in playing a role. Autism is more likely in siblings. Whether or not this predisposed a subgroup of kids to autism after MMR vaccine was first investigated in the US and the findings published in 2015. In that study 95,727 children who had older siblings were assessed for vaccine status and a diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorder. The study concluded three things. One, that receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with an increased risk of ASD and two, this was regardless of whether or not a sibling had autism. In other words there was no association, even among kids at higher risk. The third conclusion is that parents with an autistic kid were less likely to vaccinated subsequent children – leaving them more susceptible to disease.

 

"This most recent study goes even further and includes over half a million children. The message is loud and clear. There is no difference in the risk of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids – even for kids with a higher risk for developing autism.

 

"I think this reasonably puts to bed the notion that MMR might trigger autism in susceptible subgroups of children. The coffin is both nailed and superglued shut then hermetically sealed."

 

Conflict of interest statement: Helen has served on industry expert advisory groups and has received research grants from industry. She does not have any personal financial interests or receive honorarium from industry. None have been related to MMR vaccine.

 

Professor Michael Baker, University of Otago, Wellington, comments:

 

"This high quality Danish study is very reassuring for anyone concerned about a possible link between MMR vaccine and autism. This was a large study that followed all children born in Denmark to Danish-born mothers between 1999 through 2010 (657,461 children) and used a population registry to identify any subsequently diagnosed with autism. Comparing MMR-vaccinated with MMR-unvaccinated children it found no increased risk of autism in the vaccinated group.

"These results should help to reassure parents that MMR vaccine is extremely safe to use. This is yet another piece of evidence to counter the sad legacy of the Wakefield study published more than 20 years ago in 1998. It raised a potential link between MMR vaccine and autism but has now been discredited and withdrawn by the journal that published it. The misplaced concern it created lowered MMR vaccine use, resulting in measles increases in several countries. This kind of ‘vaccine hesitancy’ has been identified by the World Health Organisation as a major threat to global public health.

"It is important that parents vaccine their children with MMR to protect them from measles, mumps and rubella. High vaccine coverage also stops these viral diseases from circulating, which is particularly important for measles because it is so infectious.

"New Zealand achieved measles elimination in 2017 meaning that our vaccine coverage was sufficiently high to prevent sustained measles circulation. We are among a growing number of countries that have attained this status, contributing to the ultimate goal of global measles eradication. Although NZ continues to see cases of measles, including an increase in the first two months of this year, these cases are all linked to imported cases in travellers.

"It is important that New Zealanders travelling overseas check their MMR status, particularly teenagers and young adults who may not have received the recommended two doses of MMR vaccine. Such vaccination will protect them and also reduce their chance of bringing measles back into New Zealand when they return."

Conflict of interest statement: I am a member of the World Health Organization Regional Verification Commission for Measles and Rubella Elimination.

 

Nikki Turner, Director of the Immunisation Advisory Centre (IMAC) and Associate Professor in the Division of General Practice and Primary Health Care, University of Auckland, comments on the current measles outbreaks in New Zealand:

 

"There has been a flurry of news reporting increasing measles outbreaks both internationally and locally. What is going on? The science behind measles control is really clear: If you have high enough immunisation rates you eliminate measles. Measles is a nasty disease with a highly effective remedy, the science is straightforward.

 

"So, why can’t we eradicate measles? There is a lot of international commentary on the damage from ‘vaccine hesitancy’ (fear and mistrust leading to declining vaccines). Some, but not all, European countries are finding growing anti-immunisation sentiment, magnified by ‘fake news’ in social media. Vaccine hesitancy arises from lack of trust – we have a world where currently there is less institutional trust, increasing equity gaps and power-imbalances.

 

"However, mistrust is only one piece of the puzzle. In New Zealand, we have actually eliminated measles, any new case starts from an import. If it spreads it is because that case is in contact with someone who is not immune.

 

"Most cases are occurring in young adults who were unaware they were not completely immunised when they were young. This is the legacy of a system that historically was not so effective at offering services, changed schedules often and does not have a national register for those who missed out.

 

"There was some added effect from some vaccine hesitancy in the 1990s arising from the myth that arose from a mistaken belief in association with childhood autism.

 

"We need a great deal more attention on how to translate effective science into effective public health service delivery. Public health messages are embedded in institutional trust and these can easily be eroded. Furthermore, we need to build and nurture social trust – requiring a system that offers quality provision and communication.

 

"Vaccine-preventable disease is a tricky product to sell at times - the absence of disease is forgotten until it reappears. The simple public health message for New Zealanders is: don’t forget to check your immunisation status. If in doubt, it is safe to revaccinate."

 

Conflict of interest statement: I chair the World Health Organization SAGE subcommittee for measles and rubella elimination.

 

Dr James Donnelly, Psychologist, Southern Cross University (AU), comments:

 

"In general, I believe that parents want to do what is best for their children. However, as a paediatric neuropsychology researcher and clinician, and parent and grandparent, I find it essential that we rely on findings of well-designed research such as the article due to appear in the Annals of Internal Medicine about the lack of a vaccine-autism link.

 

"In a sample of over 500,000 children followed for several years, using data available through the health system, MMR vaccination did not increase the risk for autism, or trigger autism even in those susceptible due to other factors such as family history. The carefully analysed results add to an already long list of studies that debunked faulty ideas about vaccinations.

 

"This study is another reminder that we need to guard against biases informed by erroneous information when making important decisions about the causes and management of childhood disorders. To ignore these findings would be irresponsible in my opinion and may put children at increased risk as believing dangerous myths instead leads to poor healthcare choices.

 

"Sadly, there will still be those who cling to conspiracy theories or coincidental evidence that confirms their fears or suspicions.

 

"The scientific method is not always applied perfectly and not all findings tell the whole story but it is the best tool we have for testing our guesses about how things work.

 

"Helping parents and the general public become informed consumers of research findings as they advocate for children is a key role for academics and clinicians across all healthcare disciplines."

 

Professor Ian Fraser AC, Immunologist, University of Queensland, comments:

 

"This comprehensive study across an entire population of over half a million children born in Denmark over 10 years definitively confirms the findings of previous studies that there is no association between administration of the MMR vaccine and subsequent development of autism, or of any of the components of the autism disorder spectrum, even in children recognised as at increased familial risk. It should further reassure parents and prospective parents that MMR vaccination is safe."

 

Note: Prof Fraser is one of the co-developers of the HPV vaccine against cervical cancer.

 

Professor Katie Flanagan, Infectious Diseases Physician and Clinical Professor, University of Tasmania, comments:

 

"All studies since the fraudulent paper of Andrew Wakefield published in the Lancet in 1998 have failed to find a link between MMR vaccination and autism. The paper was subsequently withdrawn but the damage had been done. An increase in vaccine hesitancy and refusal since then has been associated with repeated outbreaks of measles in industrialised countries in recent years, including Australia, with cases doubling in Europe in the last year. Since measles is potentially lethal and highly infectious the ideal scenario would be to eradicate it from the world altogether, as was achieved with smallpox through vaccination. However, measles eradication requires more than 95 per cent of people need to be vaccinated which will be hard to achieve while the mythical link between MMR and autism persists.

 

Hviid and colleagues performed a comprehensive country-wide analysis of more than 600,000 Danish children and greater than 5 million-person years of follow up, finding no evidence of a link between MMR and autism. It is the largest study yet to address this question. Furthermore, there was no link between MMR and autism even in those deemed at high risk of autism. Perhaps it is time to finally lay to rest the false information that MMR causes autism and get on with the important goal of eradicating this deadly disease once and for all."

 





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  Reply # 2191242 5-Mar-2019 11:45
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Meanwhile Andrew Wakefield has found a friend in Donald Trump and is peddling his theory in the US. As part of his reinvention he's apparently dumped his wife and is now in a relationship with Elle Macpherson.

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  Reply # 2191286 5-Mar-2019 11:56
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freitasm:

 

Danish researchers have found further evidence the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccination does not increase the risk for autism.

 

 

This. In every way, this. 

 

Some people are conspiracy nuts. They are just nuts. I'm not sure how to combat that, other than tightening legislation that protects children from fools, even if the fools are the parents.

 

Religious nuts who object to vaccination as a matter of principle, are a different category of nut. I think religion is given way to much credibility in our society. If religious nuts want to be exclusive and have their own institutions, they should pay for them. If they object to vaccination on some woolly biblical notion of not interfering with god's divine right to make them suffer, they should be chucked into a pit of snakes to test their faith while their children are vaccinated anyway. It is a matter of public health, not to mention the welfare of the kids. Religious nuttery does not override that.

 

 





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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 2191289 5-Mar-2019 12:03
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Watched the documentary Behind the Curve on Netflix. At one point one of the people say Flat Earthers are in the middle of a web of theories that involve anti-vaccine, chemtrails, government involvement in 9/11 and more. 

 

These are the kind of people who don't vaccinate their children.





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  Reply # 2191332 5-Mar-2019 12:21
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Possibly, the present NZ measles outbreak may be linked to the Philippines and an unknown (?) "index case" bringing it from there to NZ.

 

A brief TLDR, Sanofi (pharma) sold a dengue vaccine in the Philippines, then after it had been administered to 3/4 million school kids in a government program, made a statement that adverse effects from infection were more likely in individuals who hadn't had prior dengue infection before vaccination. If they became infected after vaccination, it could be more severe than if you hadn't been vaccinated - a hypothesis is that this may have been behind it.  There were a few thousand who became infected with dengue after this vaccination, and allegedly the severity of disease was worse than if they hadn't been vaccinated.  WHO seem to back this up.  There have been about 120 deaths attributed to this reaction, but it's probably not possible to prove. Background mortality from dengue in the Philippines has been about 750 deaths PA - that's actually fallen since 2017, the reasons for the drop may or may not be related to introduction of the vaccine.

 

Reaction has been a lowering of MMR vaccination rates, and over 13,000 reported cases of measles and more than 200 deaths.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengvaxia_controversy

 

It's a cock-up of epic scale - try and argue this with an anti-vaxxer - they've been provided with emotional ammunition to counter anything you could say.


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  Reply # 2191449 5-Mar-2019 17:33
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Fred99:

 

Possibly, the present NZ measles outbreak may be linked to the Philippines and an unknown (?) "index case" bringing it from there to NZ.

 

A brief TLDR, Sanofi (pharma) sold a dengue vaccine in the Philippines, then after it had been administered to 3/4 million school kids in a government program, made a statement that adverse effects from infection were more likely in individuals who hadn't had prior dengue infection before vaccination. If they became infected after vaccination, it could be more severe than if you hadn't been vaccinated - a hypothesis is that this may have been behind it.  There were a few thousand who became infected with dengue after this vaccination, and allegedly the severity of disease was worse than if they hadn't been vaccinated.  WHO seem to back this up.  There have been about 120 deaths attributed to this reaction, but it's probably not possible to prove. Background mortality from dengue in the Philippines has been about 750 deaths PA - that's actually fallen since 2017, the reasons for the drop may or may not be related to introduction of the vaccine.

 

Reaction has been a lowering of MMR vaccination rates, and over 13,000 reported cases of measles and more than 200 deaths.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengvaxia_controversy

 

It's a cock-up of epic scale - try and argue this with an anti-vaxxer - they've been provided with emotional ammunition to counter anything you could say.

 

I seem to be able insert personal experience a lot in this topic - coincidence I can assure you.

 

In the mid 2000's whilst working at the Children's Hospital at Westmead Sydney I participated in a double blind study of a Dengue Fever Vaccine CDY17. I was paid $600 in Shell petrol cards. Had 3 blood tests over 2 years. At the end of the trial actually run at out of the Sanofi Pasteur manufacturer, I was informed I had received the actual vaccine. However, in 2018, I was informed that the efficacy of this vaccine is only 50% and any future "Standard" blood tests will return false positives and I should inform the authorities of my previous participation.

 

Oh well I gave it go.





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  Reply # 2191455 5-Mar-2019 17:53
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I have something like that. For some reason I always test positive for TB antibodies. It caused a major panic many years ago when I was exposed to someone who actually did have TB. All of that person's associates were tested, I popped up as always, and I was kidnapped by two burly ambulance attendants and hustled off to the hospital isolation ward. It took three days before they determined that I didn't actually have anything and I was unceremoniously dumped on the street to find my own way home.

 

 





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Reply # 2192045 6-Mar-2019 11:40
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A lady died and went to heaven, upon seeing God she says “there is one this I always wanted to know. “

 

 

 

 

 

“Ok, ask away” God said.

 

“Do vaccines cause autism?” She asked.

 

“the truth is no, vaccines have nothing to do with autism” God admitted.

 

The women shakes her head and says “They got to you too, this thing really goes high up.”

 

 


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