2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

1 | ... | 1263 | 1264 | 1265 | 1266 | 1267 | 1268 | 1269 | 1270 | 1271 | 1272 | 1273 | ... | 2401

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#2692725 14-Apr-2021 14:59

Fred99:

Well the minister actually did almost all that could have been expected when asked about the individual who hadn't been tested since November. He'd informed his employer that he had been regularly tested. "So did he lie about being tested?" That as close to being acknowledged without actually calling the person a liar, which is something he should not do.

Why is the testing for MIQ staff and workers not being managed through the facilities like the testing for the people actually in MIQ? How can you have an MIQ testing regime if the entire thing is based on just asking someone if they're getting tested? Weren't we setting up our own security teams and MIQ staff at some point instead of using external companies for exactly this reason?

You can't take credit for a border testing regime when it catches cases but then offload blame onto everyone else when it doesn't. Either your system is good enough or it isn't. In this case, it looks like the entire border testing regime can be outfoxed by just saying "I'm being tested" when you aren't being tested.

Pluralsight

Learn cloud, mobile, security, data and web technologies with Pluralsight (affiliate link).

tdgeek

28616 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2692729 14-Apr-2021 15:07

The employer, First Security, is legally obliged to ensure the employees are tested. Clearly we cant trust any employees, but we also cannot trust any employers.

networkn

Networkn
30218 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2692730 14-Apr-2021 15:09

tdgeek:

The employer, First Security, is legally obliged to ensure the employees are tested. Clearly we cant trust any employees, but we also cannot trust any employers.

Or the people whose ultimate responsibility it is, which is, who the employers report to. If they were being required to provide accurate information, and it was being spot-checked, and mismatch of information resulted in suspension of contracts or fines, then employers would provide accurate information.

frankv

5583 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2692736 14-Apr-2021 15:23

Fred99:

empacher48:

First thing is, a pilot’s health is directly related to their ability to do a job. Most of the serious side effects of this vaccine will mean a pilot will no longer be able to hold a medical and therefore won’t have a job. For example, have a blood clot = your medical is gone, never fly again = no income.

Blood clotting is a common side effect of having C-19 - and you're far more likely to experience blood clotting from that, than from any of the vaccines - but especially the one you're offered here for which AFAIK the clotting risk is effectively zero.

There's no excuse for vaccine hesitancy by pilots at all. It's freaking crazy to think that I'd be in a plane flown by someone who's bought into anti-vax CT.

You're almost infinitely more likely to have a different adverse medical event not related to the vaccine ground you, and presumably have very generous income protection insurance should that happen.

You missed the point. He said that international pilots are queueing up for the vaccine. But, for a domestic-only pilot, there's little in the way of benefit, and some immediate risk. This doesn't mean that they've bought into anti-vax CT, just a basic risk/benefit analysis. And presuming a generous income, let alone generous income protection insurance, for domestic pilots (especially those not captaining jets) is, well, presumptuous. Airline pilots on small regional airlines are not well paid.

frankv

5583 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2692740 14-Apr-2021 15:32

ezbee:

In the Moderna group, four individuals out of 30,000 reported facial paralysis, three who had received the vaccine, and one who received the placebo.

How different is the placebo from the vaccine?

Is it similar in some way (e.g. containing whatever else is in the injection... mostly saline solution, I assume, with other stuff to (I guess) promote the uptake into the bloodstream (aluminium salts?) And could that other stuff cause the side-effects?

So, could varying the other stuff reduce the risk of blood clots, for example?

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#2692745 14-Apr-2021 15:38

frankv:

But, for a domestic-only pilot, there's little in the way of benefit, and some immediate risk. This doesn't mean that they've bought into anti-vax CT, just a basic risk/benefit analysis. And presuming a generous income, let alone generous income protection insurance, for domestic pilots (especially those not captaining jets) is, well, presumptuous. Airline pilots on small regional airlines are not well paid.

I disagree. They're at risk of losing their jobs if their "example" to the rest of the community from a trusted profession - which ended up as front page news - results in ongoing lockdowns and disruptions to domestic air travel.

Apart from that, some of the common neurological disorders from Covid 19 (apart from the known risk from clotting) could easily end up grounding them if they caught it. It's almost delusional to think that we'll achieve full herd-immunity globally, that's very unfortunate for the few who won't be able to have a vaccine or for whom it won't work. For the rest of us, there's no excuse whatsoever. We're stuck with this new disease for the foreseeable future, and need to protect others by protecting ourselves.

Sure, flying domestic/smaller planes may not be as well paid as some people expect (by far in some cases probably), but I'd wager that there are still many applicants for any vacancy that appears.

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#2692761 14-Apr-2021 15:57

frankv:

ezbee:

In the Moderna group, four individuals out of 30,000 reported facial paralysis, three who had received the vaccine, and one who received the placebo.

How different is the placebo from the vaccine?

Is it similar in some way (e.g. containing whatever else is in the injection... mostly saline solution, I assume, with other stuff to (I guess) promote the uptake into the bloodstream (aluminium salts?) And could that other stuff cause the side-effects?

So, could varying the other stuff reduce the risk of blood clots, for example?

Anything is possible and the cause of Bell's Palsy isn't well understood, but if it's an inflammation of nerves sometimes related to immune system disorders, and it happens more frequently after administration of a drug that stimulates an immune response, then that'd be a good place to start looking - so more likely to be the active content of the vaccine rather than the excipients.

Edit to say that the blood clotting is "unusual" and also probably seems to be an immune response:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104882

If it's a double-blind trial, there'd be a potential difficulty as for example the Pfizer vaccine is a off-white colloidal suspension. Trial data says they used "saline". I could tell the difference and would know if I looked, that would probably affect my post vaccination risk behaviour. Whoever would be administering the vaccine would know too, so I don't know how they got around that. The "double blind" nature of the trial was probably a little bit compromised anyway - many people have some reaction to the vaccine, they'd "know" they didn't get saline. At least any error from this would give a "safe" bias, indicating efficacy wasn't quite as good as it may prove to be, rather than exaggerating efficacy.

empacher48

347 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2692767 14-Apr-2021 16:05

Fred99:
frankv:

But, for a domestic-only pilot, there's little in the way of benefit, and some immediate risk. This doesn't mean that they've bought into anti-vax CT, just a basic risk/benefit analysis. And presuming a generous income, let alone generous income protection insurance, for domestic pilots (especially those not captaining jets) is, well, presumptuous. Airline pilots on small regional airlines are not well paid.

I disagree. They're at risk of losing their jobs if their "example" to the rest of the community from a trusted profession - which ended up as front page news - results in ongoing lockdowns and disruptions to domestic air travel.

Apart from that, some of the common neurological disorders from Covid 19 (apart from the known risk from clotting) could easily end up grounding them if they caught it. It's almost delusional to think that we'll achieve full herd-immunity globally, that's very unfortunate for the few who won't be able to have a vaccine or for whom it won't work. For the rest of us, there's no excuse whatsoever. We're stuck with this new disease for the foreseeable future, and need to protect others by protecting ourselves.

Sure, flying domestic/smaller planes may not be as well paid as some people expect (by far in some cases probably), but I'd wager that there are still many applicants for any vacancy that appears.

You do realise that domestic pilots are not border workers?

They don’t cross the border or work at the border and are only eligible for the vaccine when it becomes their turn. They weren’t in phase 1, medevac pilots will be eligible at phase 2 of the rollout, some pilots maybe eligible under phase 3 if they are over 65. So the vast majority of pilots in NZ will only become eligible with the rest of NZ from July.

networkn

Networkn
30218 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2692770 14-Apr-2021 16:11

empacher48

You do realise that domestic pilots are not border workers?

They don’t cross the border or work at the border and are only eligible for the vaccine when it becomes their turn. They weren’t in phase 1, medevac pilots will be eligible at phase 2 of the rollout, some pilots maybe eligible under phase 3 if they are over 65. So the vast majority of pilots in NZ will only become eligible with the rest of NZ from July.

Then presumably they weren't the subject of the article we are referencing. One would assume that the article refers to people who 'should' be getting vaccinated now, otherwise, what is the point of the article?

empacher48

347 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2692827 14-Apr-2021 16:39

networkn:
empacher48

You do realise that domestic pilots are not border workers?

They don’t cross the border or work at the border and are only eligible for the vaccine when it becomes their turn. They weren’t in phase 1, medevac pilots will be eligible at phase 2 of the rollout, some pilots maybe eligible under phase 3 if they are over 65. So the vast majority of pilots in NZ will only become eligible with the rest of NZ from July.

Then presumably they weren't the subject of the article we are referencing. One would assume that the article refers to people who 'should' be getting vaccinated now, otherwise, what is the point of the article?

The article was about NZALPA members not the entire pilot population of NZ, of which about 1000 members of NZALPA are international pilots. (Approx 800 from AirNZ Jet, the rest from Jetstar and Jetconnect - QANTAS’ NZ operation). The rest of the pilots who are ALPA members come from anything from regional turboprop through to flying instructors, helicopter pilots and scenic pilots.

There are about 2000 NZALPA members, so only half have been eligible to receive the vaccine. I can only speak for where I work and we were eligible to receive the vaccine four weeks ago and we have 98% of people with a first dose and 67% completed a second dose.

There was nothing specific in the article other than vague words like “many members have not received the vaccine”, however about 50% of members are ineligible! There were other non-specific words like “some are waiting for more information” and “a few are anti-vax” no numbers, just vague statements.

However people have jumped from vague words such as “some” and “few” to mean it’s the majority.

Batman

Mad Scientist
29045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2692829 14-Apr-2021 16:40

tdgeek:
The employer, First Security, is legally obliged to ensure the employees are tested. Clearly we cant trust any employees, but we also cannot trust any employers.

There are a whole list of people that we can't trust...

Trust has become a bad word in this thread

tdgeek

28616 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2692836 14-Apr-2021 17:43

networkn:

Or the people whose ultimate responsibility it is, which is, who the employers report to. If they were being required to provide accurate information, and it was being spot-checked, and mismatch of information resulted in suspension of contracts or fines, then employers would provide accurate information.

The Government! No surprise there... We agree, the employers cannot be trusted, so we need to take the onus off them.

tdgeek

28616 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2692842 14-Apr-2021 17:51

Batman:
tdgeek:

The employer, First Security, is legally obliged to ensure the employees are tested. Clearly we cant trust any employees, but we also cannot trust any employers.

There are a whole list of people that we can't trust...

Trust has become a bad word in this thread

Yeah from a notable few. The bottom line is that in this case the employer is legally bound. We know we cannot trust citizens. Now we cannot trust employers? I actually believe we can but like most humans its not 100% reliable. Maybe its best we don't trust anybody, then we can all live the autocratic regime....

It's about tine we ALL took some responsibility. In the case of First Security, maybe they were slack or gave too much trust in their employees. Either way, a lesson learned. We can live with human frailties or we can go autocratic and legislate everything. Or as this thread has shown, its all luck so who cares?

networkn

Networkn
30218 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2692851 14-Apr-2021 18:05

tdgeek:

networkn:

Or the people whose ultimate responsibility it is, which is, who the employers report to. If they were being required to provide accurate information, and it was being spot-checked, and mismatch of information resulted in suspension of contracts or fines, then employers would provide accurate information.

The Government! No surprise there... We agree, the employers cannot be trusted, so we need to take the onus off them.

That should have been obvious from the very start.

vexxxboy

4088 posts

Uber Geek

#2692882 14-Apr-2021 19:48

i dont know why this is such a thing to be upset about , so he wasn't tested for 6 months ok he should have been but what happened last week still would have happened even if he had been tested weekly, the main problem is that he wasn't vaccinated and no one knew . They need to sort that out first.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

1 | ... | 1263 | 1264 | 1265 | 1266 | 1267 | 1268 | 1269 | 1270 | 1271 | 1272 | 1273 | ... | 2401