2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2783921 24-Sep-2021 21:08

On2or3wheels:

Technofreak:

What sector do you work in? I'm not suggesting every sector should be saved BUT we do need a vibrant and diverse economy so that we can have a standard of living we all expect.

I don't know what you're aiming at here. We have more jobs than people almost. Hospo & tourism, two of the big areas affected, are typically low wage. I would say at the moment there are great opportunities for people to move out of low wage jobs.

This might not be popular, but I'm sick of people opening cafes & developers putting them in to the bottom of every new building. This does not build the economy & those workers would be beneficial somewhere else.

Right now most of us have the standard of living that we expect. That's not going to continue if there is too many restrictions or lockdowns. The government has to get their money from somewhere in order to be able to pay wage subsidies etc. They cannot keep handing money out for ever. Hence the need for a vibrant diverse economy.

I'm guessing those cafes are making money. They're certainly employing people and paying them a wage. I'd also guess those same people wouldn't be working in the cafe if they could get better money elsewhere.

What sector do you work in? I'll wager it's not one that's taken a decent hit with Covid.

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tdgeek

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#2783932 24-Sep-2021 21:50

MikeB4:

@tdgeek Ummm I am not sure I said I prefer lockdowns to vaccines. If I gave that impression I am sorry that was not my intention. Vaccines are a powerful weapon in the fight as are lockdowns and MIQs. It would be great if effective antiviral treatments can be found to add to the ammunition clip.

@MikeB4 Apologies, I took the "Yes we should continue with restrictions" as being pro Lockdowns, i.e. restrictions, as compared to the apparent opening up with vaccines managing the hospital bed issues.

There are two bookends, one is lockdown isolation, the other is the Boris/ScoMo model. Hopefully we will be in between, but at the health end.

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#2784129 25-Sep-2021 13:19

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-16-new-community-cases-as-aucklanders-embrace-level-3-weekend/MVPOGVEVTHWD64OREVJDDQT7JY/

16 cases 3 unlinked (for now)

2 of yesterday had exposure events

Batman

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#2784130 25-Sep-2021 13:20

also good to see our PM has high standards, targeting 90% population vaccinated

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/no-jab-no-entry-change-heart-pm

On2or3wheels

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#2784135 25-Sep-2021 13:49

Technofreak:

Right now most of us have the standard of living that we expect. That's not going to continue if there is too many restrictions or lockdowns. The government has to get their money from somewhere in order to be able to pay wage subsidies etc. They cannot keep handing money out for ever. Hence the need for a vibrant diverse economy.

What sector do you work in? I'll wager it's not one that's taken a decent hit with Covid.

I think you're moving this on from what I was originally replying to. You appeared to be making out (maybe I misunderstood but you said "fortress New Zealand") that we don't have a vibrant diverse economy or a standard of living because we're closed off to the world & that we should open our borders. I believe NZ apart from a few key industries like tourism & hospo has done fine. The reason I was talking about cafes is because if people want a better standard of living there are currently many better paying jobs out there, that is nothing to do with the border being closed. For many people it's their choice to be in a lower paid job.

You know I'm not talking about the country doing well while there's a lock down. Of course it will suffer & the country would run out of money.

On2or3wheels

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#2784138 25-Sep-2021 13:53

Only 3 of yesterday's cases were in isolation while infectious. Two exposure events.

ezbee

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#2784185 25-Sep-2021 14:56

Its a story that plays out sometimes with much more tragic results, around the world.

Melbourne tradie who was in ICU with COVID urges protesting construction workers to get vaccinated
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-24/melbourne-tradie-with-covid-slams-protesters-urges-vaccination/100489814
""
Mr Chellia had always intended to get vaccinated but had not felt there was any hurry.
Aged in his late 30s, he felt a false sense of security.
""
He believes he contracted the virus after unthinkingly shaking hands with one of his colleagues, who was refusing to wear a mask.
"He said, 'I'm a superman — I won't get it,'" Mr Chellia said.
"After that, he got the virus, I got the virus, my other colleague got the virus."
""
The site was eventually linked to 150 cases, including his own 2 daughters.

Yep get vaccinated, wear a mask, and wash/sanitize your hands, break workteams into bubbles.
https://vaxx.nz/
https://covid19.govt.nz/covid-19-vaccines/how-to-get-a-covid-19-vaccination/walk-in-and-drive-through-vaccination-centres/

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#2784186 25-Sep-2021 15:00

I don't think it will get antivax to listen or change their minds. Literally over my dead body mentality.

Buster

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#2784188 25-Sep-2021 15:12

Up close and personal is the way some people learn. 🤷‍♂️

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#2784210 25-Sep-2021 16:06

Batman: I don't think it will get antivax to listen or change their minds. Literally over my dead body mentality.

Luckily true anti-vax people are quite rare. My understanding is that they will be far outnumbered by people who:

Intend to get vaccinated, just haven't got around to it yet.
Intend to get vaccinated, but have some kind of barrier to access like transport.
Are Hesitant, and don't want to be a first mover, but once they are the odd one out in their social group will jump onboard

etc.

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#2784215 25-Sep-2021 16:28

It was interesting to see the CDC decision (and the controversy in reaching it) around boosters. They're now recommending Pfizer boosters now pretty much be deemed essential for 65+ and those with medical conditions and those working in high risk environments aged 18+

What was interesting though is once again the significant concerns about myocarditis in younger males, with the booster recommendations only for those aged 18+, and that they'll be closely watching the data because of some concerns that the chances of myocarditis could be higher after a third dose due to an even greater immune response.

Technofreak

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#2784219 25-Sep-2021 16:31

On2or3wheels:

Technofreak:

Right now most of us have the standard of living that we expect. That's not going to continue if there is too many restrictions or lockdowns. The government has to get their money from somewhere in order to be able to pay wage subsidies etc. They cannot keep handing money out for ever. Hence the need for a vibrant diverse economy.

What sector do you work in? I'll wager it's not one that's taken a decent hit with Covid.

I think you're moving this on from what I was originally replying to. You appeared to be making out (maybe I misunderstood but you said "fortress New Zealand") that we don't have a vibrant diverse economy or a standard of living because we're closed off to the world & that we should open our borders. I believe NZ apart from a few key industries like tourism & hospo has done fine. The reason I was talking about cafes is because if people want a better standard of living there are currently many better paying jobs out there, that is nothing to do with the border being closed. For many people it's their choice to be in a lower paid job.

You know I'm not talking about the country doing well while there's a lock down. Of course it will suffer & the country would run out of money.

Some of New Zealand is doing OK, some is hanging in and some is only surviving due to the wage subsidy. I would suggest one primary reason we appear to be doing OK is the amount of money the government has pumped into the economy. That cannot carry on indefinitely. At some stage our standard of living has to be impacted. At some point the money the government has borrowed for the wage subsidies etc has to be paid back. That will affect the standard of living we experience at some time in the future.

There is already a lot of New Zealanders that have had their standard of living severley impacted by Covid. I personally know of over 100 people who lost their jobs directly as a result of the impacts of Covid and the closure of our borders. None of these were tourism or hospitality jobs.

There are professions where New Zealand doesn't train enough people. We rely on immigrants to keep some sectors including the health sector going. The border closures are having a huge impact for some businesses. Businesses closing their doors or reducing their operations because they cannot staff their businesses.

Perhaps you could tell us why you think all these cafe workers that you're concerned about haven't taken one of these higher paying jobs? We all want to earn more money, right?

Maybe it's because they aren't qualified for the jobs, maybe they cannot relocate, maybe they only want to work part time etc.

Something that tends to be forgotten is all those tourism and hospitality businesses and their employees spend money in their communities. They all, buy groceries, they all buy clothes, they all buy cars, their cars need servicing and fueling, they all own or rent houses which need plumbers, electricians, builders, painters etc from time to time, the list goes on. Where tourism is a major employer in a locality it's not just the tourists direct spending that has disappeared it's all the other stuff as well.

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Scott3

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#2784221 25-Sep-2021 16:43

I'm still tracking the number of people infections in the community (which is released in the MOH media releases with one day lag).

Interestingly Today release has a divergence of values. 4 cases who were neither in isolation or had exposure events:

"Cases infectious in the community: Two (22%) of yesterday’s cases have exposure events
Cases in isolation throughout the period they were infectious: Three (33%) of yesterday’s cases"

The last few days have had those numbers add up to 100%... 7,10,7 infectious in the community for the prior 3 days...

Don't really know what to make of that. Perhaps:

They don't count your household as an exposure event?
If you just happened to not go out in your infectious period it is not considered isolation?
4 people just refused to engage with contact tracers, so it is not known what they were up to?

Regardless, those numbers are stubbornly above zero.

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As per many here I am picking increasing case numbers / exposure event's under level 3 in Auckland. But really need another week to test that hypothesis.

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Interesting change in dialog recently.

Interesting interview released this morning:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-90-project-pm-jacinda-ardern-on-a-no-jab-no-entry-scheme-and-childrens-vaccinations/GYRJDOOQOOH2EMSO7QQEGBUKDQ/

Softening of wording around if we are going to eliminate this outbreak.

Big change in stance from the PM from 6 weeks ago where she wasn't willing to have vaccine requirements for entry to venue, to actively exploring "no jab, no entry" options.

Also over the last few days we have a senior minister state that vaccine mandates are under active consideration too.

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In terms of vaccination numbers, first doses yesterday were 18,981. Been a decent while since we have seen an active weekday under 20k first doses, so it seems we are pressing against solidly against the saturation point of the easy people to vaccinate, and a heap of effort is going to need to be exerted over the next several weeks to continue to seek out the remaining non vaccinated population.

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In terms of vaccination policy, Given a major function of our covid-19 vaccination program is to minimize harm & manage hospital load, I wonder if it would be feasible to include the national vaccination schedule in the any vaccine mandates or passes.

Given that the covid-19 vaccine has just been cleared to be given with most other vaccines, it would be nice if we could kill to birds with one stone, and use this as an opportunity to protect our country from the likes of another measles outbreak.

If we are going to re-open for isolation free travel, there may be merit in including the influenza vaccine in it too (and funding it to everybody - Obviously we don't have enough doses on hand to do it this winter). After two winters with near zero or zero influenza, we are likely to have a terrible winter for flu after we re-introduce it into our community (which will be very problematic for our hospitals, stacked on top of covid-19).

Technofreak

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#2784223 25-Sep-2021 16:47

Scott3:

Batman: I don't think it will get antivax to listen or change their minds. Literally over my dead body mentality.

Luckily true anti-vax people are quite rare. My understanding is that they will be far outnumbered by people who:

Intend to get vaccinated, just haven't got around to it yet.
Intend to get vaccinated, but have some kind of barrier to access like transport.
Are Hesitant, and don't want to be a first mover, but once they are the odd one out in their social group will jump onboard
etc.

I hope you're right. From what I have seen there is a a reasonable number of people opposed to the vaccine and they will not change their minds. They have been convinced by some of these overseas "experts" like Dr Peter McCullough and Dr Ryan Cole of AFLDS etc about how bad the vaccines are. For example they're worried about blood clots which isn't a concern with the Pfizer vaccine, but because blood clots are listed by Medsafe as an adverse reaction that should be notified therefore blood clots are an issue.

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Scott3

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#2784230 25-Sep-2021 17:10

Technofreak:

I hope you're right. From what I have seen there is a a reasonable number of people opposed to the vaccine and they will not change their minds. They have been convinced by some of these overseas "experts" like Dr Peter McCullough and Dr Ryan Cole of AFLDS etc about how bad the vaccines are. For example they're worried about blood clots which isn't a concern with the Pfizer vaccine, but because blood clots are listed by Medsafe as an adverse reaction that should be notified therefore blood clots are an issue.

Hope this makes you feel a little better:

Poll out 2 days ago:

https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/625/kiwis-feel-more-at-risk-from-covid-86-16-likely-to-get-vaccine

Poll of 2,334 Respondents aged 16+

"The overall potential uptake, including those already vaccinated and those who are likely to get a vaccine is estimated to be 86% of the 16+ population, up from 79% in July. The overall potential"

Not only is 86% a very respectable result in it's own right, it is a substantial increase from the July result.

Hopefully this tread continues, as more and more people are vaccinated, and concerns like "it's too new" fade away. Also people often have more trust in people they know. Having your friend or family member share their experiences with vaccination will carry a lot more weight for many than what people standing behind podiums say.

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