2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2786802 30-Sep-2021 09:47

GV27:

Handle9:

How else do you expect elimination to work? Voluntary home quarantine definitely wouldn’t work.

That doesn't really matter, though, in the scheme of things. People who are living paycheque to paycheque are going to do what they can to avoid being chucked in an MIQ facility for two weeks.

It's a pity. We could have just thrown a bit of money at people that have positive tests and need to go to a Quarantine facility. Thowing $1000 a week at each elegiable adult would likely allow them to keep there personal affairs in good order with just a smartphone from inside the hotel. Could even sweeten the deal by ensuring every Quarantine room has Sky TV, and a current generation games console...

I have been seeing rumors that some people doesn't want to be tested because they don't want to go into quarantine because they want to drink excessively and / or do drugs. Not really sure how we deal with that. Having drunk / High covid-19 positive people in a facility seems quite high risk, but also dealing with people going thorough withdrawal while in quarantine doesn't seem ideal.

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GV27

5864 posts

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#2786805 30-Sep-2021 09:49

CruciasNZ:

This is something I've been thinking about recently too. Unfortunately with the way cost of living is relative to income it's not something you can fix easily - most of the people exposed to this risk do not have the capacity to do anything about it. They'd need to either implement a social insurance like ACC that covers loss of wages, or introduce a smaller kiwisaver tier (like 1 or 2%), make it mandatory, and add a clause to Kiwisaver than pandemic counts as hardship for emergency access to funds.

Both will meet resistance, both have bad optics. Social safety net would put more risk on the government and essentially be another part of WINZ, so many wouldn't trust it and opposition parties may chop it at some point to make government smaller. Kiwisaver approach takes longer to become effective as people have to save (alongside employer and government contributions), but may be better in the long run. Right now you get a small tax credit for saving with Kiwisaver, perhaps that should be redirected into Kiwisaver and all government contributions (including the $1000 kickstart and the tax thing) are able to be accessed under hardship.

Therein lies the rub - you're taking money from people who already can't make ends meet to lock it up, arguably to cover the cost of the very social safety nets we're supposedly being taxed for in the first place - but are in reality totally inadequate.

The whole relationship between 'the state' and individuals needs re-examining, but those issues long preceded Covid. Covid just made it really obvious that nothing is changing in that regard, but the ability of people to pay much more to overhaul the state (the ever increasing cost of health care being a good example) is rapidly going backwards.

JPNZ

1504 posts

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#2786810 30-Sep-2021 09:56

Has anyone read up about NZ vaccine passports? Sorry if it was discussed on a previous page

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452601/proposed-vaccine-passport-significantly-flawed-ministry-insider

Vaccine certificates are likely to be granted to people without a person needing any actual proof they've been vaccinated.

And the certificates themselves could be ripe for misuse, because there is no identification needed for the proposed system, and people did not have to provide ID when getting their innoculation.

I don't even..

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#2786829 30-Sep-2021 10:26

JPNZ:
Has anyone read up about NZ vaccine passports? Sorry if it was discussed on a previous page

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452601/proposed-vaccine-passport-significantly-flawed-ministry-insider

Vaccine certificates are likely to be granted to people without a person needing any actual proof they've been vaccinated.

And the certificates themselves could be ripe for misuse, because there is no identification needed for the proposed system, and people did not have to provide ID when getting their innoculation.

I don't even..

Lol

GV27

5864 posts

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#2786836 30-Sep-2021 10:35

JPNZ:

Has anyone read up about NZ vaccine passports? Sorry if it was discussed on a previous page

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452601/proposed-vaccine-passport-significantly-flawed-ministry-insider

Vaccine certificates are likely to be granted to people without a person needing any actual proof they've been vaccinated.

And the certificates themselves could be ripe for misuse, because there is no identification needed for the proposed system, and people did not have to provide ID when getting their innoculation.

I don't even..

If this is true and it's the only thing that's going to change (we know we don't have to hit 0 cases a day to move down alert levels because we've been told that) between now and when we can travel throughout NZ then I'd love to know the justification for keeping Auckland behind a hard border, because it would effectively become meaningless.

cshwone

1067 posts

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#2786839 30-Sep-2021 10:47

GV27:

JPNZ:

Has anyone read up about NZ vaccine passports? Sorry if it was discussed on a previous page

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452601/proposed-vaccine-passport-significantly-flawed-ministry-insider

Vaccine certificates are likely to be granted to people without a person needing any actual proof they've been vaccinated.

And the certificates themselves could be ripe for misuse, because there is no identification needed for the proposed system, and people did not have to provide ID when getting their innoculation.

I don't even..

If this is true and it's the only thing that's going to change (we know we don't have to hit 0 cases a day to move down alert levels because we've been told that) between now and when we can travel throughout NZ then I'd love to know the justification for keeping Auckland behind a hard border, because it would effectively become meaningless.

Another problem is that with the big drive to get Auckland vaccinated, as soon as the hard border is removed then there is a fair chance that asymptomatic vaccinated people from Auckland could spread the virus around the rest of the country. The only solution I can see is to get everyone vaccinated asap, not just Auckland.

Scott3

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#2786845 30-Sep-2021 11:09

Proposed vaccine passport significantly flawed - ministry insider

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452601/proposed-vaccine-passport-significantly-flawed-ministry-insider

"This will provide motivation for fraud - an anti-vaxxer could easily book a vaccine appointment and pay someone to receive it on their behalf, for example."

They said there is no evidence fraud is happening, but there is also nothing to stop it.

"As the system currently operates, there is no capability to detect, monitor or prevent such abuse, and there is no way to prove that you have actually had a vaccine.

"It's a problem that can't be retrospectively fixed."

wellygary

8202 posts

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#2786901 30-Sep-2021 11:35

Scott3:

"This will provide motivation for fraud - an anti-vaxxer could easily book a vaccine appointment and pay someone to receive it on their behalf, for example."

I was thinking about that the other day, but for it to work you need find

a) Someone who wants to give up their ability to have their own vax passport, or

b) Is prepared to have 4 doses, (so they can get their own)...

Both are pretty big points for the "vaxee" to agree to..

ezbee

2349 posts

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#2786919 30-Sep-2021 11:49

wellygary, I think you hit the key point. Vaxee has to get 4 shots, Or 8,12,16 etc to make a steady income.

As far as paying someone else to vaccinate for you, its not going to work in significant numbers.
You might get an odd isolated case where someone willing and in right looking age, and those people find each other.
Probably more likely they take the money and blackmail you then introduce you to their rich Nigerian friend and run.

Its more thought experiment territory.
If < 10 people manage it, it does not really significantly stuff the whole system.
Once again if we are highly vaccinated then fallout likely to be small if unfortunate mainly for them, or an older loved one.

GV27

5864 posts

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#2786921 30-Sep-2021 12:08

ezbee:

wellygary, I think you hit the key point. Vaxee has to get 4 shots, Or 8,12,16 etc to make a steady income.

Money won't always be why people do things like this - family is a very powerful motivator and people can twist the arms of loved ones sometimes without any shame at all.

Not hard to imagine someone taking an extra set of jabs ("I mean we're going to need boosters anyway, right, and it just means you end up more protected, so win win!" so that a vaccine-hesitant relative can travel regionally ahead of Xmas.

Buster

297 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2786947 30-Sep-2021 12:46

GV27:

Money won't always be why people do things like this - family is a very powerful motivator and people can twist the arms of loved ones sometimes without any shame at all.

Not hard to imagine someone taking an extra set of jabs ("I mean we're going to need boosters anyway, right, and it just means you end up more protected, so win win!" so that a vaccine-hesitant relative can travel regionally ahead of Xmas.

Simple scheme when you think about it.

Person A gets two shots and a passport.

Person B gets two shots and a passport.

Person C (antivax) books in and gets A and B to receive a third shot each (like a booster plus cash) and collects their passport.

The occurrence of this is so rare it actually makes no difference and natural selection eliminates/exterminates the antivax. 🤷‍♂️

ajobbins

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#2786952 30-Sep-2021 12:53

Handle9: How else do you expect elimination to work? Voluntary home quarantine definitely wouldn’t work.

It worked just fine here in VIC until our latest outbreak, but it wasn't the home quarantine that did us in, it was the combination of the infectiousness of delta coupled with lockdown fatigue at near 200 days in what is roughly equivalent (but a little stricter) than your L3.

VIC got down from 700 cases/day last year to 0 without managed quarantine of community cases. There were a couple of isolated breaches early on but generally good compliance when they started doing spot checks to ensure people were home - there were many hundreds of these happening every day, so there was a fairly good change you got a knock on the door on any given day.

As others have pointed out - there are significant implications of removing someone from their home for 2 weeks.

For me - I'm generally a rule follower with this kind of stuff, but if I reasonably suspected I had covid and knew that if I tested positive I would be locked in a hotel room for 2 weeks I would probably seriously think about if I went and got a test, or if I just bunkered down for 2 weeks, ordered some groceries to be delivered and waited out my potentially infectious period in my own home, with my own bed, my family and my pets and all the comforts I have here that I wouldn't in a tiny hotel room. Ultimately I'd probably do the right thing - because not getting a test could mean others who I could have infected may not be made aware - but I bet a lot of others with the same consideration would make the other decision.

But that isn't the case here - you can request to be taken to a managed facility if you are worried those around you are at risk, but it's completely voluntary. While you are isolating at home you are allowed to have groceries, takeways, alcohol or other good delivered and aren't at the mercy of whatever food your quarantine provider decides to serve you.

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#2786958 30-Sep-2021 13:07

wellygary:
Scott3:

"This will provide motivation for fraud - an anti-vaxxer could easily book a vaccine appointment and pay someone to receive it on their behalf, for example."

I was thinking about that the other day, but for it to work you need find

a) Someone who wants to give up their ability to have their own vax passport, or

b) Is prepared to have 4 doses, (so they can get their own)...

Both are pretty big points for the "vaxee" to agree to..

They hate the vaccine so much they won't be paying someone else to take it

GV27

5864 posts

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#2787018 30-Sep-2021 13:25

"Ardern says she wants to signal the high likelihood of the Auckland boundary remaining. Full consideration is being given to easing. Removing that regional boundary is not in consideration."

Well, there it is. Unsurprising but also pretty much the key difference between L2 and L3.

ezbee

2349 posts

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#2787021 30-Sep-2021 13:32

My main gripe is...
Ministry Insider was quoted as saying 'significantly' flawed.
I see this as inconceivable that numbers large enough to be 'significant' could occur.

It says more about some inside ministries.
Probably explains so much of the 'you can'ts' re masks etc, and now vaccines.
I'm sure the crystals and aromatherapy dispensers are 'perfectly' lined up neatly on their desk.

There is a balance of making vaccination places as quick easy and non threatening as possible to as many as possible.
Its opposite to the whole fear thing some pushed.
Reducing fear, even overstayer, on the lamb, or James Bond on secret mission, no ID can be done.

Possible and Probable both start with letter P but don't mean the same thing.

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