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GV27:@henrycooke
Covid-19 NZ update: - 27 new cases - 5 unlinked - 10 of yday's infectious in community
Fantastic. Apparently another Middlemore presentation as well.
mattwnz: It looks like there are 96 cases under investigation or unlinked in total on the MOH site.
Twitter: ajobbins
Hypotheses made on this site a couple of weeks back are not showing strong signs of being true.
Level 4 wasn't working to eliminate the outbreak in a reasonable time, so either we needed to step things up (level 5?), or go down to level 3, to minimum the economic cost of the lock down's, but increasing massively increasing the risk we don't get to zero cases.
I think the "infectious in the community" is the best stat to track to predict the pathway of the outbreak.
Graph (thanks to @ajobbins via https://covidstats.jdk.nz/) is showing an uptick of the trend line starting about 4 days ago, roughly when we would expect the lag of numbers from level 4 to start wearing off... Any chance the red bars could be under the blue ones?
It can be inferred from this that cases will keep rising in the near term under level 3.
Will be very interesting to see what the dialog is on the Monday press conference. The governments credibility is fast erroding with the continued use of the word elimination, and talk of getting to zero cases... Dropping Auckland to level 2 with the same dialog would be laughable, in light of roughly half of the cases of the last few days not being in isolation for their entire infectious period.
I think moving Auckland back up to alert level 4 (or 5) is off the cards now. Would be a clear admission that the move to level 3 was a mistake, and given we have given the virus this breather, would take at least 4 weeks to get to zero cases... I don't think there is social licence for such a lockdown. Plus lock-down fatigue would set in making it less effective anyway.
This basically means the only option is to come clean about the move to some kind of suppression strategy. Under a suppression strategy the purpose of the alert levels will be to time the peak of the outbreak, and (in the future), to slow the outbreak to relieve pressure on our health system. Ultimately I think the public will demand that Auckland go to level 2 under a suppression strategy. So the only question is timing... Is it worth a couple more weeks at L3 now, to delay the peak of the outbreak by a couple of weeks to get more people vaccinated, hospitals more prepared, more treatments available etc?
First doses have slowed dramatically now (only 12,278 yesterday), so it will be hard to justify waiting for more first doses (and the virus is going to take 6 odd weeks to ramp up anyway so second doses aren't as much of a concern), without dramatic intervention in that area. Proof of vaccine app isn't ready yet, so that can't be used as a stick yet.
Personally I am pritty scared by what is happening in NSW and VIC. If I was running the country I would hit the button on mandatory vaccinations (medical exemptions only). Say that a few people aren't going to hold the majority of the population hostage. I suspect the government may not be willing to accept the likely massive resulting protests so won't go that route.
In terms of travel, if we end up have 300+ daily cases in say 4 - 6 weeks, we won't have enough MIQ bed's to put them in, so will need to start having them isolate at home. If we are isolating confirmed positive cases at home, it is hard to justify that we are not allowing (vaccinated and negitive test result) international travelers home isolation too, so I imagine that will come fast.
Will also have to deal with a UK style "Pingdemic" at some point, where so many essential workers are required to isolated critical supply chains like supermarket break down, and we ultimately need to abandon requiring essential workers to isolate if they are a close contact to keep food on the shelves... Would really want them all vaccinated if it comes to that.
If all this comes to fruition, it will be hard news for Non-Auckland to take. The border is super porous, so a large number of cases in Auckland is going to result in spread to the rest of the country eventually likely via a legitimate traveler.
And quietly in the background from today's press release:
Naumi MIQ worker
Whole genome sequencing carried out by ESR has identified a clear epidemiological link between the Naumi MIQ worker who was reported as a positive case on September 30 and another case at the border.
The worker tested positive on 29 September as part of routine surveillance testing. They are fully vaccinated and have been tested regularly. The hours they worked mean they had limited contact with guests at the hotel. They are now isolating in a quarantine facility.
An investigation is underway to determine the pathway of the worker’s infection and identify potential contacts.
In the unlikely situation we did eliminate this outbreak, we are only buying time until the next one... Our MIQ is far from perfect.
heavenlywild: We as a country are sailing without a rudder.
I thank my lucky stars we're not in a country run by nasty little people with Dunning-Kruger posting nonsense on social media and forums.
Scott3:
This basically means the only option is to come clean about the move to some kind of suppression strategy. Under a suppression strategy the purpose of the alert levels will be to time the peak of the outbreak, and (in the future), to slow the outbreak to relieve pressure on our health system. Ultimately I think the public will demand that Auckland go to level 2 under a suppression strategy. So the only question is timing... Is it worth a couple more weeks at L3 now, to delay the peak of the outbreak by a couple of weeks to get more people vaccinated, hospitals more prepared, more treatments available etc?
Still reckon the best chance is the vaccine passport, but current indications are that's early Nov at the earliest, which is probably just too long for most still under L3 to bother continuing to obey the lockdown rules.
Labour Weekend really is the make-or-break for whether we get on top of this - if we're not at L2 by then, I suspect many will just decide to act like we are.
GV27:Labour Weekend really is the make-or-break for whether we get on top of this - if we're not at L2 by then, I suspect many will just decide to act like we are.
TBH I have given up. My family is fully vaccinated. We observe the rules, but.................
................... we can't do any more as a family but I hope none of us get anything requiring urgent hospital treatment over the next 6 months. First vaccine doses are reducing rapidly, we aren't going to get anywhere near 90%, Auckland has to many flouters which the government has ignored. I really can't be bothered anymore and will have to accept what is to come and it wont be pretty. (Note not pritty (no such word))
Handle9:GV27:
Labour Weekend really is the make-or-break for whether we get on top of this - if we're not at L2 by then, I suspect many will just decide to act like we are.
Now big protests have started. Things are pretty much following the same pattern as Victoria and NSW.
I though that it was a Tamaki march run under the banner of "Jesus Loves Me - This I Know - Donate to Me - Covid Will Go"
Kind of different from NSW and Vic. He should be locked up - no point giving him a fine as sadly the mainly poor and uneducated members of his cult will end up paying any fine the courts could throw at him.
Talking with a Dr who works in public health today about medical ethics on withholding treatment for unvaccinated people. 100% agreement that on clinical symptoms alone it's unethical, but 100% certainty that many doctors aren't going to be doing unvaccinated victims favours when allocating ICU placements etc. They'll be deprioritised because of a fact - they're far more likely to die - so better allocating limited resources to those who have a chance.
heavenlywild: I'm keen to see under 12s vaxxed. I hope MedSafe expedites their review and gets it done before Xmas.
TBH, unless there's very high vaccination rates in the >12 age group, then it's probably pointless. Very few small kids get seriously sick, and the selfish antivax dickheads in the 18-50 age group will be 100% sure of acting as a reservoir of infection - they will be the killers in NZ's endemic covid rollout.
heavenlywild:
Exactly. How many people are dying now because they can't get medical treatment? A spike in young adolescents committing suicide. So many unintended consequences.
My point is there are always competing priorities. There's currently no balance to how the govt sees things.
Do you have hard numbers or just a question thrown in?
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freitasm:heavenlywild:
Exactly. How many people are dying now because they can't get medical treatment? A spike in young adolescents committing suicide. So many unintended consequences.
My point is there are always competing priorities. There's currently no balance to how the govt sees things.Do you have hard numbers or just a question thrown in?
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