2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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5096 posts

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#2789298 4-Oct-2021 19:33

Batman:
i edited it

not giving dates, not giving vaccination level

we are watching what's happening with the outbreak

Good job mate.

Well there ya go, shes gone on record stating what we have been assuming, that there is no plan, the plan is wait and see. So TDgeek, its not petty and I dont think the ppl that replied to you were trying to be petty. I think its a pretty fair call to be disgruntled with what is very wishy washy. When there is sooo much more we could be doing to increase speed to some state of normality, not just for Auck, but for when the virus rips through the the country.

The rate of unvaccinated really cant be pin pointed to Geography, despite the SI moaning and groaning in news reports. But it is clear which demographic is holding Auckland back from getting back to some state of normality.

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TeaLeaf

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#2789299 4-Oct-2021 19:38

tdgeek:
[Petty it is. The attitude by some here is petty and a bit childish at times.

If you are referring to me, I was just backing up what somebody else replied to you. Pease PM me instead as this isnt the place for playground antics and generalisations to try and sway your argument.

I reiterate, nobody is being petty by wanting delineation. I presume you are in Auckland to be commenting on what is petty or not? You have to understand, like I said, things like healthcare are going to the way side and concessions without repercussions will not help that, it will make it worse. That is reality, not petty.

tdgeek

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#2789300 4-Oct-2021 19:38

TeaLeaf:
Batman:

i edited it

not giving dates, not giving vaccination level

we are watching what's happening with the outbreak

Good job mate. Well there ya go, shes gone on record stating what we have been assuming, that there is no plan, the plan is wait and see. So TDgeek, its not petty and I dont think the ppl that replied to you were trying to be petty. I think its a pretty fair call to be disgruntled with what is very wishy washy. When there is sooo much more we could be doing to increase speed to some state of normality, not just for Auck, but for when the virus rips through the the country. The rate of unvaccinated really cant be pin pointed to Geography, despite the SI moaning and groaning in news reports. But it is clear which demographic is holding Auckland back from getting back to some state of normality.

Your doing it again,. Pretending that certain points are not petty whereas I said the attitudes from some are petty. There is another thread, or of you feel you can run this show and sort it, call the MoH

I feel another Santner show coming on lol, same deal. But you know more than every else, and have all the fixes needed. Id rather stick to the real world.

TeaLeaf

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#2789301 4-Oct-2021 19:50

tdgeek: TeaLeaf: I feel another Santner show coming on lol, same deal. But you know more than every else

My thoughts on a cricket team are relevant? Please DM the people you feel being petty as here is not the place. Pls

Far from thinking I know everything, but I do know what I am seeing and the reality of it. Im not alone as you can see from some +1 to my comments and ppl I know in Auck all feel the same. Ppl disagreeing with you isnt petty, dont take it to heart, its the purpose of a forum. Discuission. As none of us have all the answers, its better to pool our thoughts on what is going on.

Comments on the "game plan" and my opinions are valid given I am living through it and I do see the consequences of concessions to this point already. Its not petty, like I said its a reality. And plenty enough people here are saying similar. Enough said.

vexxxboy

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#2789302 4-Oct-2021 19:52

Opening up is what is planned after vaccinations are at the level they need to be, Plan? "where they need to be", were is that exactly?

Did I hear the PM say that vaccinations alone won't be enough? Also say that they want to see the high levels of vaccination so levels 3 and 4 won't be needed. But that doesn't sound like things are going back to pre covid days (eg level 1)

Bloomfield has already said that we will not be going back to the freedoms of level 1 in a delta world.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/bloomfield-level-1-freedoms-a-thing-of-the-past

Common sense is not as common as you think.

mattwnz

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#2789304 4-Oct-2021 19:53

Fred99:

Well reading the last couple of pages it seems clear that half the posts think the easing of lockdown conditions is unfair on them / too tough, the other half seem to think we should go to level 5 and crush dissent with anti-aircraft fire.

Everything sucks - but it would have sucked much harder to have lived the past 18 months with endemic covid, Ireland for example, same population as NZ, 6,000 deaths later they're still in a worse situation than we are in now - or at least will be in when we have our vaccination rates up.

I distinctly remember when we went into lockdown #1 there was a message that this pandemic would be impacting us for years. Nothing yet has made that untrue.

Anyway, we slip slop slap and put our kids under shade cloth and hats, get mole mapped and become hypochondriacs when some new spot seems to have appeared. But endemic covid with the present vaccines guarantees an annual death toll 5x that of melanoma, but everything about preventing it is just too hard.

I think a lot of people are just frustrated by the flouting and lack of enforcement and wishy washy vagueness. Whereas with last years lockdown, you could see the finish line, as we slowly got down to zero cases.

Batman

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#2789307 4-Oct-2021 20:01

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-covid-response-minister-chris-hipkins-admits-zero-covid-cases-are-a-thing-of-the-past/VTCVIKEYPR2HCPOEBUGYSE4Q4I/

tdgeek

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#2789308 4-Oct-2021 20:02

mattwnz:

I think a lot of people are just frustrated by the flouting and lack of enforcement and wishy washy vagueness. Whereas with last years lockdown, you could see the finish line, as we slowly got down to zero cases.

They are. Flouting has been shocking and its not partygoers, its family with family, with neighbours. Unless you patrol the streets, all streets, you cannot stop that. Last years lockdowns were Alpha, a great level of compliance, and the flouters made the news as there wasn't a lot of it. Totally different ball game now. Double the infectiousness, make flouting a daily thing, dont test (just be one of the many picked up in door to door testing), its a whole different ballgame now.

Maybe MoH should have forecasted this with a great deal of certainty. But they didn't. Same reason why the plans from here on in don't include dates and times. But another area wants us to actually "open up" when vax = 70%. We could do that in a few short weeks, problem solved...

TeaLeaf

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#2789310 4-Oct-2021 20:06

mattwnz: <

I think a lot of people are just frustrated by the flouting and lack of enforcement and wishy washy vagueness. Whereas with last years lockdown, you could see the finish line, as we slowly got down to zero cases.

Yes definitely. Thats the perspective Im coming from. There is zero enforcement. You have some people treating lvl3 (and 4) like its 2 and the majority pissed off that they just get away with it. The vaguness just leaves people uncertain of what is allowed and what isnt, it seems the avg person isnt going to keep checking the goal posts on both what is allowed and when we are out of this situation, they are just treating it like its not occuring. That is where lack of enforcement is a large part of the issue.

As you say, now, it appears there is no finish line.

And that is aside from all the simple things that could be promoted to reduce exposure, that are being used elsewhere in the world.

I think people want input on how to handle the situation given its their lives that are impacted. As the Prof of Auck medicine said, the Govt needs to stop acting like the one stop source of all knowledge and get back to their jobs of passing legislation in parliament (words to that effect). Personally I think we obviously need the PM to make statements, but it sounds like there is little available input to the Minister of Health by other "experts". So at an academia level there seems to be a level of frustration, outside day to day impacts on us plebs.

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#2789311 4-Oct-2021 20:08

tdgeek:
Petty it is. The attitude by some here is petty and a bit childish at times.

I too have observed this. I hope I haven’t come across as petty and apologise if I have.

I fully acknowledge that it’s an emotionally charged topic but that doesn’t excuse not being civil.

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TeaLeaf

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#2789328 4-Oct-2021 20:20

tdgeek:Totally different ball game now. Double the infectiousness, make flouting a daily thing, dont test (just be one of the many picked up in door to door testing), its a whole different ballgame now.

Maybe MoH should have forecasted this with a great deal of certainty. But another area wants us to actually "open up" when vax = 70%. We could do that in a few short weeks, problem solved...

Yes very different, certainly ppl i speak to in Auck all felt Delta was vastly more real, possibly due to images of bodies in streets overseas etc and not wanting that here.

Door to door imo should be a reality. We have the rapid tests available, or just make them available for anybody who feels "Covid" like symptoms, then once positive, a PCR test is done to record it in the system etc. Along with as I mentioned earlier, daily rapid tests for all border crossing workers. It could alleviate a lot of the unknowns and possibly get Auck working again.

MoH hasn't had a great track record with planning it appears. Regardless they just need a clear roadmap, like NSW is setting out. NZ is very very conservative by nature, so I think that has a lot to do with the should I or shouldnt I paralysis that seems to be coming from the MoH. Hopefully that improves post opening up as we will need some fast thinkers and decision makers.

NSW is opening at 70% are they not? Listening to the chap on Coronacast (ABC), Im pretty sure he said he would feel comfortable fully vaxxd and wearing a mask using a domestic plane. I will have to listen to that again to make sure Im not mis quoting/para phrasing. But I think Aus is a lot more progressive than NZ. It also has a much better public health system. NZ doesnt put defined tax percentage into a managed untouchable health insurance fund, we follow more like the US in that we spend money where we think we need to and look at what is left over. Of course it depends on the govt at hand on the spend, but that is my basic understanding of it and why it takes 6 months under public health to see a specialist at times vs 2 weeks in Aus. In saying that, they have a lot more ppl. So would be interesting to see what NSWs strategy for ICU demand is.......

What is the spend on hospital and ICU development outside of Auckland, especially in rural areas that largely rely on medical centres etc?

cokemaster:and apologise if I have.

I fully acknowledge that it’s an emotionally charged topic but that doesn’t excuse not being civil.

I agree, we have to be civil. I too apologise if I appeared petty. it is an extremely frustrating time and a lot of what the Govt is proposing is, well, it isnt anything, and that does create a lot of uncertainty for ppl in Auckland. I do not think how seperated it feels is explainable to those not impacted. Not being able to something as simple as use your boat, while other people are breaking the rules. There has to be some certainty and some consequences for those who break the rules most of us are trying to abide by.

Edit: Here is the NSW roadmap, starts at 70%

https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/easing-covid-19-restrictions

tdgeek

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#2789438 4-Oct-2021 21:11

TeaLeaf: Yes very different, certainly ppl i speak to in Auck all felt Delta was vastly more real, possibly due to images of bodies in streets overseas etc and not wanting that here. Door to door imo should be a reality. We have the rapid tests available, or just make them available for anybody who feels "Covid" like symptoms, then once positive, a PCR test is done to record it in the system etc. Along with as I mentioned earlier, daily rapid tests for all border crossing workers. It could alleviate a lot of the unknowns and possibly get Auck working again. MoH hasn't had a great track record with planning it appears. Regardless they just need a clear roadmap, like NSW is setting out. NZ is very very conservative by nature, so I think that has a lot to do with the should I or shouldnt I paralysis that seems to be coming from the MoH. Hopefully that improves post opening up as we will need some fast thinkers and decision makers. NSW is opening at 70% are they not? Listening to the chap on Coronacast (ABC), Im pretty sure he said he would feel comfortable fully vaxxd and wearing a mask using a domestic plane. I will have to listen to that again to make sure Im not mis quoting/para phrasing. But I think Aus is a lot more progressive than NZ. It also has a much better public health system. NZ doesnt put defined tax percentage into a managed untouchable health insurance fund, we follow more like the US in that we spend money where we think we need to and look at what is left over. Of course it depends on the govt at hand on the spend, but that is my basic understanding of it and why it takes 6 months under public health to see a specialist at times vs 2 weeks in Aus. In saying that, they have a lot more ppl. So would be interesting to see what NSWs strategy for ICU demand is....... What is the spend on hospital and ICU development outside of Auckland, especially in rural areas that largely rely on medical centres etc?
cokemaster:and apologise if I have.

I fully acknowledge that it’s an emotionally charged topic but that doesn’t excuse not being civil.
I agree, we have to be civil. I too apologise if I appeared petty. it is an extremely frustrating time and a lot of what the Govt is proposing is, well, it isnt anything, and that does create a lot of uncertainty for ppl in Auckland. I do not think how seperated it feels is explainable to those not impacted. Not being able to something as simple as use your boat, while other people are breaking the rules. There has to be some certainty and some consequences for those who break the rules most of us are trying to abide by. Edit: Here is the NSW roadmap, starts at 70% https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/easing-covid-19-restrictions

It comes down to, do you want a plan that starts on a certain date, with an unknown result, or do you want a plan that evolves, and it wont be the first time we have looked at AUS who went ahead of us to see how that goes. In which case the plan and what goes with that can evolve, to maximise the result. That doesn't mean NZ will be on the never never.

Here, we are at 77% with one dose, that will increase as dose two is done for many tomorrow and the next day. If all of these only had the jab today (which is obviously not the case) it would only be 6 weeks max to be at 77% of eligibles. So we could go early as well. But what about the Maori/Pasifika that are well down on vaccines? The 20-30 age group is also well behind and these are the socialisers. And what of the ICU's? And the non Covid care that can be put back if ICU/beds are overwhelmed? Do you throw all them to the wolves just so you can create a date that makes everyone happy?

We cannot fix ICU and beds. But we can fix managing the restrictions to keep ICE/bed use under control, while we try (and its not really working) to get these groups mentioned to a proper vaccine uptake. As has occurred everywhere else, it becomes an outbreak of the unvaccinated, so for us, at 70% we throw 20-30 and Maori/Pasifika under the bus with deaths.

TeaLeaf

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#2789448 4-Oct-2021 21:42

tdgeek: But we can fix managing the restrictions to keep ICE/bed use under control, while we try (and its not really working) to get these groups mentioned to a proper vaccine uptake. As has occurred everywhere else, it becomes an outbreak of the unvaccinated, so for us, at 70% we throw 20-30 and Maori/Pasifika under the bus with deaths.

Yes, a huge focus should be on the demographic you mention and 20-35yo in general. For me that is purely a marketing exercise. I do know they are having a lot of talks. So I do not think the Govt is leaving them behind. But the remaining groups whatever the demographic, must decide. There is plenty of factual infomation on the transmission of non vaxxed groups vs vaxxed. There really isn't much more they can do, I just hope the closer the time comes to a cut of date (I think this will be pressured out of the govt fairly soon) they choose wisely.

Things like it is more probable a vaccinated person will recover from infection and likely much faster, limited ICU beds will be given priority to the basis on probability of faster recovery or recovery at all IMO. It is a grim picture that we will soon face, lots of deaths, but we cannot remain in limbo forever. This imo is why the Govt is stalling, they do not want to leave anyone behind, but by doing so they are leaving 2mill people in limbo plus the diminishing efficacy of the vax. So if they do stall to beyond Xmas, imo they are obliged to offer booster shots to those that want them.

tdgeek

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#2789450 4-Oct-2021 22:03

TeaLeaf: Yes, a huge focus should be on the demographic you mention and 20-35yo in general. For me that is purely a marketing exercise. I do know they are having a lot of talks. So I do not think the Govt is leaving them behind. But the remaining groups whatever the demographic, must decide. There is plenty of factual infomation on the transmission of non vaxxed groups vs vaxxed. There really isn't much more they can do, I just hope the closer the time comes to a cut of date (I think this will be pressured out of the govt fairly soon) they choose wisely. Things like it is more probable a vaccinated person will recover from infection and likely much faster, limited ICU beds will be given priority to the basis on probability of faster recovery or recovery at all IMO. It is a grim picture that we will soon face, lots of deaths, but we cannot remain in limbo forever. This imo is why the Govt is stalling, they do not want to leave anyone behind, but by doing so they are leaving 2mill people in limbo plus the diminishing efficacy of the vax. So if they do still to beyond Xmas, imo they are obliged to offer booster shots to those that want them.

The demographics. You feel the Govtisnt g oing to leave them behind. Well I hope not as one group is vulnerable the other are potential mass spreaders. But you feel there are talks going on? To quote a recent comment, thats a bit wishy washy and vague. Especially if you feel we need a plan as detailed and date wise as the pdf you posted.

Lots of deaths, grim reality, can't stay in limbo forever. Re the latter point, the issue is not that the "plan" is maybe end 2022 if you are lucky, thats the inference. Its not dated, thats it, nor detailed, but the plan to ease restrictions is based on vaccines, thats a known. The former, well there is a trade off, death or life. And as this date that you are keen on is not in the forever, its just time to get vaccines up for the vulnerable. And ideally the 20-30's. Or set a plan today and hope it works out

Stalling. I guess we could not stall, we will be at 70% shortly, then we ease off, and as you put it, we leave them behind. Your point is quite clear. If it was Dec 2021 or Dec 2022 that would be another discussion but Dec 2021 was the date put forward as the end of the rollout, so again, its not forever. But yes, your point is clear.

Efficacy of the vax is not relevant. Boosters are a thing no matter what plan anyone has.

TeaLeaf

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#2789454 4-Oct-2021 22:37

tdgeek: To quote a recent comment, thats a bit wishy washy and vague.

Efficacy of the vax is not relevant. Boosters are a thing no matter what plan anyone has.

Inflammatory comments/clickbait and gaslighting people by quoting other peoples comments is not the way to influence and win friends. let it go. Pls, 2 people have apologised (without need), time to be friends.

Its not OUR responsibility to make the plan, that is the Govts job to get it right.

What people said is there no clear plan ie like NSW plan, which is why Aucklanders are in serious covid fatigue, not because of lockdown, but thats been said by others and myself so it ends there. As for talks, you need to watch/read more NZ covid news if you want to be informed on such matters.

Efficacy of a vax is not relevant? That sounds on the surface like disinformation. Please explain what context you mean that in? Because efficacy as a collective is the whole point of vaccination. The percentiles of both full protection and lowered viral load infection are exponentially different as it lowers. But to suggest its irrelevant pretty much dismisses the Vax as unimportant.

Re Sailing/Boating, from the online update;

Latest update — 4 October 2021

The Government has announced a 3 step plan for easing restrictions in Auckland.

From 11:59pm on Tuesday 5 October, Aucklanders can travel anywhere within the Auckland region for outdoor exercise and recreation.

You will now be able to go boating — including fishing from a motorised boat or vessel, sailing, scuba diving, jetskiing and camp overnight.

Oh yeah, feels like freedom at last!!! toot toooooooo

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