2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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5874 posts

Uber Geek

#2809938 9-Nov-2021 16:15

MileHighKiwi:

Why ban a teacher or nurse from working for not being vaccinated when there are alternatives and we really need them to do their job?

How well can a teacher do their job if they buy into anti-vax bullshit in the first place?

We might need teachers, but we don't need those teachers.

Plus, anyone who would knowingly expose children to a higher risk of getting Covid isn't really someone I want in schools, sorry.

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ezbee

2358 posts

Uber Geek

#2809940 9-Nov-2021 16:18

Milehighkiwi...

Rest of workforce will feel better off without risk to them, their families, and their patients.
Especially for Hospitals where consequences for outbreaks in Hospital can be dire.

We can put in plans to hire more stable people, maybe even up opportunities for Nursing graduates.

Antivax nurses have been responsible for deliberate saline, or false vaccinations in other countries.
Seems the way we thought we were civilized society that no one would do this has changed.

Apparently in USA cases caught covid in Hospital, when you are most vulnerable.

Patients went into the hospital for care. After testing positive there for COVID-19, some never came out.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/04/patients-admitted-hospitals-unrelated-ailment-left-covid/6263682001/

""
About 21% of the patients who contracted COVID-19 in the hospital from April to September last year died, the data shows.
""

wellygary

8218 posts

Uber Geek

#2809941 9-Nov-2021 16:20

KrazyKid:

100% Guarantee there will be legal challenges - already have been in NZ by at least one border worker (failed) and plenty of challenges in in Aussie re there mandates to date.
Some teachers and mid-wives are waiting on the results of a judicial review right now.

Nice thing about be a government is if the courts rule against you, you can change the laws.
Unless the plaintiffs get public opinion on their side I suspect they are whistling into the wind.

Courts are fairly clear,

Vaccine mandates are "demonstrably justified" for Border workers - and any other cases will find the same thing.

Heck- there are legal opinions by at least 2 NZ Supreme court judges (handed down as SC judges) that it would likely be legal to require all NZers to be compulsorily vaccinated.....

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fired-aviation-security-workers-rights-limited-but-lose-case-over-governments-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-judge-rules/URFJ4VHOZ2Y5TTCGTEKHWMK74U/

Handle9

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#2809942 9-Nov-2021 16:26

mudguard:

sen8or:

That the unvaccinated can't go to bars / restaurants etc really seems like the tip of the iceberg. I can really see this turning into quite a shit fight in the not too distant future and I suspect legal challenges will be plentiful.

But this surely comes under fairly recent legislation that company directors are personally liable for their employees? I don't recall the specifics but I report to Australia in my current role. I drive 30,000kms for year so we've had a lot of driver training the past three years to make sure we are as well equipped as we can to avoid accidents whilst driving for work.

I guess the vaccine will come under a similar umbrella, if you allow a worker to remain unvaccinated, and they get crook and infect others, are the directors liable? Is health all of a sudden more sacred than say my current driver's license status for example?

It's not as black and white as that. The employer has a number of obligations, several of which are in conflict with each other. They have the obligation to keep their employees safe. To determine if their employees are at risk of infection at work they need to do a risk assessment. If this risk assessment shows a low risk of infection at work they, as a reasonable employer, can not mandate vaccination and have no right to ask their employees if they are vaccinated.

If there is a significant risk then they can mandate controls, up to and including vaccination however they need to consult on this. They must at all times behave as a reasonable employer which means that they can't dictate controls that are out of proportion to the risks. They also have an obligation to keep the vaccination status of their employees confidential - it is their employees private medical information. They can only disclose it with the permission of the employee.

It's a very complex area and has already proved litigious. It should be clarified with legislation.

Batman

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#2809955 9-Nov-2021 17:02

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/people-unvaccinated-by-choice-in-singapore-to-be-barred-from-free-covid-19-treatment/BMANH5P3YKHPNT4Q6G4M4OLOMY/

note: they have a sort of a semi user-pay system to begin with, somewhere between USA and NZ

Daynger

422 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2810087 9-Nov-2021 20:17

sen8or:

Some interesting developments within our workspace, we contract to various educational and aged care facilities in a professional capacity, we are now receiving notices through about the mandates and that only vaccinated staff can enter their premises under normal conditions.

This raises a few points -

Our staff's "private" health information is no longer private. Not only by us sending a staff member to a site are we basically declaring their vaccination status to an outside party, some institutions have gone as far as requiring proof of vaccine for that person we send (via Govt confirmation such as the covid vaccination status on my health etc).

External parties are essentially mandating our internal policies in that unvaccinated staff may very well be out of a job through obsolescence, even if it is safe for them to carry out their work and/or they can utilise PPE to further protect against the risk of catching or passing on COVID, by preventing these people from entering sites they are unemployable (our business is not one that is directly mandated and even a "covid risk assessment" indicates that our risks are low - moderate due to the nature of our work).

So whilst it may only be educational, healthcare or border workers that have vaccines mandated, the net is cast much wider.

For schools, will this mandate extend to parents attending a school function (parent teacher interviews, assemblies etc?)

For aged care, can unvaccinated people visit their parents / grand parents?

That the unvaccinated can't go to bars / restaurants etc really seems like the tip of the iceberg. I can really see this turning into quite a shit fight in the not too distant future and I suspect legal challenges will be plentiful.

Legal challenges wont be that plentiful, two got thrown out today in court. Once people realise its a waste of money and effort they will stop litigating.

As staff your employer may have trouble mandating vaccinations, but as contractors you can be forced as is happening in the construction industry, proof of vaccine or not welcome on site.

Places like rest homes have high criteria for entry because of the risk to the elderly tenants, it will be part of their H and S policy, a policy all contractors have to abide by or they arent allowed on site. Refuse and they will get the next crowd in, simple as that.

This is where NZ is heading, like it or not, the unvaccinated will struggle for employment in certain fields.

quickymart

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#2810093 9-Nov-2021 20:45

Milehighkiwi: As a parent, I can safely say I wouldn't want any teacher who is not vaccinated instructing my children, even if they were the best teacher in the land.

Also, if they believe all the antivaxx crap going around at the moment, well...what else are they teaching my kids that simply isn't true? No thanks.

Edit: also, good news! https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-anti-vaccination-protest-in-wellington-died-an-uneventful-death/UGKOTGXHCLWJVGE57EJ35DW4ZQ/

and https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/09-11-2021/march-against-government/

quickymart

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#2810098 9-Nov-2021 20:58

Daynger:

Legal challenges wont be that plentiful, two got thrown out today in court. Once people realise its a waste of money and effort they will stop litigating.

You mean that idiotic Sue Grey? The "lawyer", who tried to argue the vaccine was "experimental"?

alexx

867 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2810100 9-Nov-2021 21:01

Technofreak:

What I cannot figure out is why there hasn't been a high profile politician put these clowns in their place.

It depends on your goal as a politician, but disruption tends to work in favour of opposition parties. They might think the anti-vaxxers are idiots, but in the short term, they might be useful idiots.

Perhaps there are also some who might be wary of going up against a movement that appears to have overseas connections and perhaps for some in the movement, a large pool of overseas funding. Some have links to Steve Bannon and those US evangelical churches are very rich.

I'm not sure who wants to go up against them.

#include <standard.disclaimer>

alexx

867 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2810101 9-Nov-2021 21:13

Western Australia to stay closed for Christmas with border not reopening until at least late January

Western Australia will wait until as late as early-February to reopen its interstate borders in a move the premier says will save 200 lives.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/05/western-australia-border-restrictions-stay-closed-for-christmas-borders-not-reopening-until-at-least-late-january

It appears that Flight Centre are threatening to launch legal action against the Western Australian government, because they won't open soon enough.

Flight Centre’s chief executive, Graham Turner, said he believed his legal team had a “reasonable chance of success” and he would know his course of action by the end of the week.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/08/doctors-say-flight-centre-should-pull-its-head-in-after-legal-threat-to-wa-borders

#include <standard.disclaimer>

Technofreak

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#2810104 9-Nov-2021 21:23

alexx:

Technofreak:

What I cannot figure out is why there hasn't been a high profile politician put these clowns in their place.

It depends on your goal as a politician, but disruption tends to work in favour of opposition parties. They might think the anti-vaxxers are idiots, but in the short term, they might be useful idiots.

Perhaps there are also some who might be wary of going up against a movement that appears to have overseas connections and perhaps for some in the movement, a large pool of overseas funding. Some have links to Steve Bannon and those US evangelical churches are very rich.

I'm not sure who wants to go up against them.

You make some good points. However useful they might be as idiots you cannot allow them to gain any footholds, otherwise they are going to gain momentum. When they are no longer useful idiots they become a major thorn in your side.

The first rule in a fight is to hit your opponent as hard as you can with the first hit.

These guys need to be told in no uncertain manner that their actions are irrational and not acceptable in our society. They need to be stopped in their tracks. That means someone of influence taking a firm stand and coalescing the support of the general population behind them.

Disruption may be useful for the opposition parties but I also think the majority of the population have no time for these vaccine/covid deniers. Right now I think there would be very good support across nearly all of the political spectrum for someone speaking out strongly about these idiots. To the point the next election could be won on this issue alone.

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MileHighKiwi

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#2810112 9-Nov-2021 21:52

quickymart:
Milehighkiwi: As a parent, I can safely say I wouldn't want any teacher who is not vaccinated instructing my children, even if they were the best teacher in the land.

Hey, I'm in the same boat at the end of the day. Our school emailed out their vaccination policy yesterday and I support it 100%. And when kids are eligible my two will get vaccinated.

I have been unsettled by a couple of friends who I can't convince to get vaccinated. These are people I've known for 20+ years and it makes me sad they will excluded from so many things now. That is the choice they have made though.

I think it all falls apart in 2-3 years anyway and vaccination certificates will be a thing of the past. We will be well and truly living with covid then and it won't be the centre of our attention. Annual shots etc. If the Spanish flu faded away surely this will too. Fingers crossed.

Scott3

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#2810170 9-Nov-2021 23:59

Regarding the vaccine mandate.

International experience tells us that only a small portion of workers who say they are going to quit / be fired over a vaccine mandate actually follow through. And as such concerns about subsequent staff shortages are largely overblown.

An an example in San Jose, a vaccine mandate for city workers (incl police) was has now come into effect. Police union warned that 100 police were ready to quit over it. In reality that there are six of the cities 7,105 workers that ended up on an unpaid suspension (Note some medical / exemptions were allowed in that location - so may not be representative of NZ).

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/11/08/san-joses-police-union-warned-100-cops-could-quit-over-the-citys-vaccine-mandate-heres-what-really-happened/

As another example, Under 0.1% of the NSW health workforce quit over the vaccination mandate. "contradicting claims that opposition to the jab would lead to staff shortages"

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/09/less-than-01-of-nsw-health-staff-have-quit-due-to-covid-vaccination-mandates

It will be interesting to see the first dose numbers for the 15th of November. We may see a noticeable uptick.

On the topic of having testing as an alternative option to vaccination, an interesting case study is France. They allow testing as an alternative to vaccination. Initially this testing was unlimited and free, but then a decision was made that it was no longer appropriate to spend public funds on testing so people could avoid the vaccine mandate (medically recommended tests and tests for minors remained free). Once people started needing to pay for tests, other than for the very wealthy, it was effectively a vaccine mandate. Perhaps a more politically palatable approach, to make it seem like there is a choice, even if there is not really a viable one.

Should note that a PCR test in NZ for international travel costs around $200. I don't see many teachers paying for weekly or twice weekly testing...

Other aspects to consider:

One function of vaccine mandates is to boost overall community vacciantion level - allowing say free weekly testing as an alternative would diminish this.
I think it would benefit our health and education industries to flush out anti vax / anti science workers. They do quite a bit of damage.

mattwnz

20045 posts

Uber Geek

#2810174 10-Nov-2021 01:09

That is a good point about costs. Surely if someone is unvaccinated out of choice (eg doesn't have an medical exemption) then they would be paying for the test. It shouldn't be the taxpayers footing the bill. Not that the tests are even that accurate, especially if it can be as old as 72 hours. Potentially it is still putting others travelling at more risk. We know that people can test negative for days and then may only test positive on day 14 after being infected.

Batman

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#2810178 10-Nov-2021 06:40

Freedom day

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/126940404/covid19-shoppers-flood-auckland-stores-and-malls-as-restrictions-ease

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