2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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4089 posts

Uber Geek

#2811258 11-Nov-2021 20:48

DS248:

vexxxboy:

...

... UK is worse at around 65% we are so much better and we never had the cases that both countries had before leaving Lockdown, dont compare NZ to most European countries or even the USA

Simple comparisons like that are not particularly meaningful, especially for a claim that "we are so much better".

In England, vaccination has not been recommended for teens under 19 (at least until very recently?). Consequently only 1%-2% of under-18's have been double vaccinated. Does somewhat impact the 12+ average.

Regardless of the above, while the overall 'first dose+" UK vaccination rate is a bit lower than NZ, the percentage double dosed is marginally higher than in NZ.

Plus of course ~19% in the UK have now had booster shots

1st Dose+ 2nd Dose+ Booster
NZ 89.7% 79.3% 0.0%
UK 87.5% 79.8% 19.0%

Figures in both cases = % of people over 12, as at 9 Nov 2021.

i was more pointing out the fact that the UK had relaxed most restrictions when they were at 65% fully vaccinated , NZ are not doing that so it was wrong to look at the UK and saying what happened in the UK or Germany could or will happen here.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

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sbiddle

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#2811262 11-Nov-2021 21:15

6 positive cases just announced in Stratford after a week or so now of positive sewage results.

One can assume there will be a lot more than 6 in the community..

sbiddle

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#2811266 11-Nov-2021 21:31

I've seen a few people in posts above talk about bricks and mortar being dead and that online if the future.. A lot of data from the US doesn't necessarily agree with that.

There are a lot of retail outlets over there who have picked up and are doing very well after people were forced to spend so much time shopping online - the selling point now of retail is that you can get your goods ASAP without having to weight for the online delivery to arrive!

On2or3wheels

184 posts

Master Geek

#2811268 11-Nov-2021 21:32

Regarding the guess of 160k anti-vaxers.

Remember the same people move around protesting in different cities/towns to make it look like there are more of them!!

mattwnz

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Uber Geek

#2811270 11-Nov-2021 21:35

sbiddle:

We know right now that masks are going to be part of our life for the quite some time particularly in crowded indoor environments and on public transport. Once we move to green those requirement for masks are gone everywhere except for planes - so until we're at a point in the future where mask use is deemed unnecessary we aren't moving to green.

I think a lot of people are still really struggling to comprehend how difficult 2022 could well be for us all, particularly the first half of the year.

If masks are going to be an important tool, then surely we should be moving to proper medical masks which are better at reducing spread than cloth ones. Some of NZs experts have been calling for this change. Apparently the polypropylene medical ones can be washed 10 times and reused. Some peoples mask wearing is almost just taking the piss.

Handle9

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#2811274 11-Nov-2021 21:48

What is the MoH trying to prove by withholding data from Whanau Ora and forcing them back to court? It appears to be a direct decision by Bloomfield. Given the woeful performance of the MoH vaccinating Maori you would expect they would take all the help they can get.

mattwnz

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Uber Geek

#2811278 11-Nov-2021 21:58

Guessing Level 3 for Stratford if following previous logic if they can't trace cases back to Auckland. Cases have been there for at least 10 days based on the water test so it could be widespread. Guessing the source is from the Auckland border which is still allowing unvaccinated to cross until December and the vaccine passport thing is ready.

cshwone

1003 posts

Uber Geek

#2811279 11-Nov-2021 22:03

Handle9:

What is the MoH trying to prove by withholding data from Whanau Ora and forcing them back to court? It appears to be a direct decision by Bloomfield. Given the woeful performance of the MoH vaccinating Maori you would expect they would take all the help they can get.

Because of some of the other Maori providers more local to many of the areas. The MoH disagreement is over the blanket release of data even where Whanau Ora are not represented in that area. Whanau ora are using this as a power grab.

Bloody politics :(

PolicyGuy

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#2811280 11-Nov-2021 22:04

Handle9:

What is the MoH trying to prove by withholding data from Whanau Ora and forcing them back to court? It appears to be a direct decision by Bloomfield. Given the woeful performance of the MoH vaccinating Maori you would expect they would take all the help they can get.

MoH's argument is based on Māori tino rangitiratanga.

The Whānau Ora Commissioning Agency (WOCA) has asked for all Māori Covid vaccination data for the whole North Island.
MoH argue that WOCA has no business getting private health information concerning Māori who live outside WOCA's rohe, and to give that data to WOCA would trample on the mana of the organisations that do have rights in those other rohe.

I suspect that if WOCA asked for data from only the Auckland Super City area, MoH would be OK with that.
If WOCA want Northland data, I think MoH would say they'd have to get buy-in from the relevant Te Tai Tokerau iwi authorities

I have no idea whether this is a clever bit of post-colonial Pākehā politics, or a correct reflection of views in Te Ao Māori.

@cshwone was too quick for me

cshwone

1003 posts

Uber Geek

#2811282 11-Nov-2021 22:11

PolicyGuy:

Handle9:

What is the MoH trying to prove by withholding data from Whanau Ora and forcing them back to court? It appears to be a direct decision by Bloomfield. Given the woeful performance of the MoH vaccinating Maori you would expect they would take all the help they can get.

MoH's argument is based on Māori tino rangitiratanga.

The Whānau Ora Commissioning Agency (WOCA) has asked for all Māori Covid vaccination data for the whole North Island.
MoH argue that WOCA has no business getting private health information concerning Māori who live outside WOCA's rohe, and to give that data to WOCA would trample on the mana of the organisations that do have rights in those other rohe.

I suspect that if WOCA asked for data from only the Auckland Super City area, MoH would be OK with that.
If WOCA want Northland data, I think MoH would say they'd have to get buy-in from the relevant Te Tai Tokerau iwi authorities

I have no idea whether this is a clever bit of post-colonial Pākehā politics, or a correct reflection of views in Te Ao Māori.

@cshwone was too quick for me

You put it a lot better than I did.

My only comment is that I don't hear other Maori agencies coming to support Whanau Ora in their bid leading me to the political grab by Whanau Ora comment.

sbiddle

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#2811283 11-Nov-2021 22:12

Handle9:

What is the MoH trying to prove by withholding data from Whanau Ora and forcing them back to court? It appears to be a direct decision by Bloomfield. Given the woeful performance of the MoH vaccinating Maori you would expect they would take all the help they can get.

I almost think it's time for Bloomfield to go.

He seems to out of touch with a number of things he's said recently and been overridden multiple times now by the Minister - yesterday being the classic example explaining the AZ policy which was then totally turned on it's end by Hipkins barely 3 1/2 hours later.

cshwone

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Uber Geek

#2811284 11-Nov-2021 22:17

sbiddle:

Handle9:

What is the MoH trying to prove by withholding data from Whanau Ora and forcing them back to court? It appears to be a direct decision by Bloomfield. Given the woeful performance of the MoH vaccinating Maori you would expect they would take all the help they can get.

I almost think it's time for Bloomfield to go.

He seems to out of touch with a number of things he's said recently and been overridden multiple times now by the Minister - yesterday being the classic example explaining the AZ policy which was then totally turned on it's end by Hipkins barely 3 1/2 hours later.

I would suggest the reverse where Dr Bloomfield (to give him his appropriate salutation) is still trying to do right but is being over ridden by the politics that the response has now descended into.

Handle9

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#2811286 11-Nov-2021 22:22

PolicyGuy:

Handle9:

What is the MoH trying to prove by withholding data from Whanau Ora and forcing them back to court? It appears to be a direct decision by Bloomfield. Given the woeful performance of the MoH vaccinating Maori you would expect they would take all the help they can get.

MoH's argument is based on Māori tino rangitiratanga.

The Whānau Ora Commissioning Agency (WOCA) has asked for all Māori Covid vaccination data for the whole North Island.
MoH argue that WOCA has no business getting private health information concerning Māori who live outside WOCA's rohe, and to give that data to WOCA would trample on the mana of the organisations that do have rights in those other rohe.

I suspect that if WOCA asked for data from only the Auckland Super City area, MoH would be OK with that.
If WOCA want Northland data, I think MoH would say they'd have to get buy-in from the relevant Te Tai Tokerau iwi authorities

I have no idea whether this is a clever bit of post-colonial Pākehā politics, or a correct reflection of views in Te Ao Māori.

@cshwone was too quick for me

The court disagreed with the ministries position and it's not the first time.

Scott3

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#2811289 11-Nov-2021 22:29

My spouse came across her first retail store requiring evidence of full vaccination today (CHANEL Britomart). Obviously came as a bit of a surprise to her given the government proof of vaccination system isn't ready yet. Ultimately they were happy for her to sign into the my covid vaccine website on her phone (luckly she had access to her realme details) and show it to them.

mattwnz:

What is crazy IMO currently is that unvaxxed can now go shopping in normal retail stores. Yet once the new traffic light system comes in, they can't apart from essential shops.

For clarity, Retail stores are not included in the businesses that are advantaged to run vaccine pass systems under the Protection framework. This is unlike NSW.

https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/covid-19-protection/

Places which are given more operational flexibility if the run vaccine certificates (at red) are:

hospitality
gatherings, such as at places of worship or marae
weddings and civil union ceremonies
funerals and tangihanga
events (indoor/outdoor)
gyms.
close contact businesses with public health requirements in place
tertiary education — vaccines required for onsite delivery, with capacity based on 1 metre distancing.

Of course, Anybody can put conditions of entry onto their premises, so we will see a bunch of other businesses requiring vaccine proof. (Unless there is a law stopping them - sounds like the government is going to ban the likes of supermarkets from doing this)

HelloThere:

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make to people that currently there is no incentive for people to get the jab. The government should set a date for the traffic light system to start and if you haven't had both doses by then you will be restricted to certain places. Maybe if they set dates it might get people off their arse and to the vaccine places. There's no excuses. Stuff the review dates. It's a typical page out of the Labour manual to try and please everyone to stay at the top of the polls. It's time to get tough and let the country move forward and business to open. I live in a popular summer area that is extremely busy during Labour weekend / Summer yet Labour weekend was quieter than a normal weekend.

Government is in a tough spot. The vaccine pass system isn't ready, so they can't bring it in yet.

They have promoted that you will need both doses in order to get the pass, in an attempt to encourage people to get their first doses ASAP. Best that could really be done under the circumstances.

I think you are right that just picking a date would provide a better incentive - Even the super optimistic stuff modeling doesn't area's outside of Auckland to reach the traffic light system target until late January.

Ideally we would have put the vaccine system in place (for Auckland at least) already by now, Allowed people with just a single dose (not more than 60 days old) to get access. A chunk of the population aren't forward thinking, and the ability to immediate get benefits from vaccination may help get them across the line.

vexxxboy

4089 posts

Uber Geek

#2811290 11-Nov-2021 22:31

mattwnz:

sbiddle:

We know right now that masks are going to be part of our life for the quite some time particularly in crowded indoor environments and on public transport. Once we move to green those requirement for masks are gone everywhere except for planes - so until we're at a point in the future where mask use is deemed unnecessary we aren't moving to green.

I think a lot of people are still really struggling to comprehend how difficult 2022 could well be for us all, particularly the first half of the year.

If masks are going to be an important tool, then surely we should be moving to proper medical masks which are better at reducing spread than cloth ones. Some of NZs experts have been calling for this change. Apparently the polypropylene medical ones can be washed 10 times and reused. Some peoples mask wearing is almost just taking the piss.

as long as the govt pays for them, if not then i will wear what i want to wear if i have to pay for them. sorry but what masks to wear is not what the govt needs to push at this point, they have enough problems.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

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