2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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2553 posts

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#2822886 2-Dec-2021 08:16

neb:
Sup:

Bottom line none of it is plausible. If you were going to make nano tech to enter the human body and control people it would be in the water supply and that would be the end of that.

BREAKING / Fox News / Psychologist admits socialist government is putting mind-control nanobots in drinking water!

Obviously it's not working very well!

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Scott3

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#2822906 2-Dec-2021 08:40

sbiddle:

The government should not have allowed free community tests to be used for this purpose - it really is another "why is this happening" moment like the fact business is not required to scan and verify vaccine passes. The anti vaxxers won, and this is just further proof of that. Travel is not an essential activity, and if you chose to not be vaccinated then you should have to face some consequences - but right now there aren't many.

I don't buy into the "but it just ends up being surveillance testing" argument that some are using.

It's also ridiculous that the govt won't fund saliva testing for many who require weekly surveillance testing such as many health workers and GP surgeries, and yet will fund a nasopharyngeal test for an antivaxxer who wants to go on holiday.

My take is that the policy is largely one to make the opening of the Auckland border politically palatable. - Allowing testing as an option means everybody can come and go from Auckland, but also means that the regions can feel some protection.

Bulk of travel out of Auckland will be by road, predominantly southbound, where only spot checks will be undertaken. If it is anything like the waikato border (L3/L2), negligible numbers of spot checks will actually be undertaken. Very high chance that those who are not fully vaccinated, would choose to just ignore the testing requirement if tests were paid.

I have a different stance on surveillance testing. Auckland it the epicenter of the outbreak. I think it is great use of public health funds to pay for these people tests before they go visiting family in other area's of the country. Complexity targeted at those who are not fully vaccinated too, the highest risk group.

That said, we do need to be careful not to overwhelm out labs, as we want tests for those who are close contacts, or have symptoms to be processed in a timely way.

I think the calls from some group's (like Te Whānau-ā-Apanui) for everybody who is visiting family in their rohe to get a test before coming is stepping over the line. We don't want to bring our testing system to it's knees.

sbiddle:

You can't use a free test for international travel. Considering these have to be booked and paid for (and far more profitable that govt funded tests) you'd hope labs are prioritising this work.

Without knowing what the contract is between lab's and the government, it is hard to say. If I was doing the contract terms on behalf of the government I would be reluctant to accept a low laboratory priory for something so important to our public health response.

I understand that some of the labs will be shutting down for some of the stat's days, so even if paid tests were prioritised, it is still going to be really risky to depart internationally to a location requiring a pre-departure test on certain days around Christmas & new years.

EDIT:

Just saw SBJ's post. Will be welcome news that pre-departure tests are being processed based on flight departure times so there won't be a stressful wait for results.

Scott3

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#2822914 2-Dec-2021 08:46

Handle9:
Batman:

i think vaccine passes should be scrapped to avoid further division, embarrassment, mickey mouse games.

was a good idea, but this is not how it should be i don't think.

there must be a better way ...

They seem to work pretty well in much of the world. What is your better way?

I'm aware of the ethical issue's, but I still think an outright mandate would be a lot kinder than the current approach.

Means that at risk communities & ethnic groups arn't left behind.

Allows the government to be the enforcer, and the general public can just be kind to each other.

Scott3

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#2822919 2-Dec-2021 08:54

sbiddle:

For those who also didn't see it, the full legislation came out yesterday for the traffic light system.

There are a couple of interesting scenarios - malls for example can enforce vaccine certificates but have to allow dedicated access to essential basic needs businesses (such as pharmacies and supermarkets) for those who don't have a vaccine pass. It'll be very interesting to see how they do this if these facilities are in the middle of a mall with no dedicated external access.

It's going to be very interesting to see how well things work here compared to other countries.

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2021/0386/20.0/LMS563461.html

Some surprising stuff in here.

Subpart 10 covers area's under localized lock-down's. Goes against prior messaging that businesses will be able to operate under all level's of the protection framework. But kinda logical that means would be drafted to quell any worrying local outbreak that pops up.

Part 23 has some interesting stuff. Any food or drink businesses in a transport station, that is an airline lounge, or on a vehicle (as part of a transport service) is exempt from running vaccine certificates. Seems somewhat risky to allow those without vaccine passes to consume food & drinks (therefor requiring mask removal) on what could well be a busy ferry or koru lounge. Potentially could allow the like's of the station cafe (National park) to be an anti vax hangout if the owners were so inclined.

tdgeek

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#2822923 2-Dec-2021 08:59

Scott3:

Allows the government to be the enforcer, and the general public can just be kind to each other.

1. Enforcer? Not sure how well that will go down. Could double the size of the Police and military I guess but thats not a quick enforcement solution

2. Kind to each other? I think most of us already are, and most of us comply, yet here we are.

You can "manage" a situation or you can force it. Human nature being what it is, the former is not easy but its moving matters forward. The latter will probably cause more issues than it fixes.

wellygary

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#2822977 2-Dec-2021 09:03

sbiddle:

For those who also didn't see it, the full legislation came out yesterday for the traffic light system.

There are a couple of interesting scenarios - malls for example can enforce vaccine certificates but have to allow dedicated access to essential basic needs businesses (such as pharmacies and supermarkets) for those who don't have a vaccine pass. It'll be very interesting to see how they do this if these facilities are in the middle of a mall with no dedicated external access.

More cones and Tape... but they have to be kept away from the food courts, (which will likely be operating under vax passes)

It will be really interesting to see what the voluntary take up in regular retail is... they get no more operating privileges,( They are still subject to caps based on distancing numbers)- But they may need tokeep out the unvaccinated under H+S legislation. ..

tdgeek

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#2822979 2-Dec-2021 09:07

Scott3:

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2021/0386/20.0/LMS563461.html

59Shopping mall must have systems and processes to enable access to permitted business or service

(1)

A business or service in control of a shopping mall must have systems and processes in place that allow customers to have access only for the purpose of enabling them to have access to a permitted business or service.

So, if the store is in the middle of the mall, and the only access is by entering the mall, the mall must have a process. So to me that means they need a guard to escort a shopper to and from the store. I cannot see any other way. Or maybe a myriad of gated walkways. The legislation should include "if practical", maybe it does elsewhere? Im not a lawyer or legislation writer, but Id assume if the mall cannot provide access, then either the mall does not operate or the internal store does not operate?

SJB

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#2822980 2-Dec-2021 09:08

Scott3:

I understand that some of the labs will be shutting down for some of the stat's days, so even if paid tests were prioritised, it is still going to be really risky to depart internationally to a location requiring a pre-departure test on certain days around Christmas & new years.

It's a little tricky even now if your flight is on a Sunday as my wifes is and the test must be within 72 hours of departure. As places like Medlab aren't open over the weekend it means you must get your sample to them (they don't take the samples, your doctor does) on Friday and hope they get the results back to you before Sunday. Medlab, at least in Timaru, is not open on the weekend.

I assume they process samples over the weekend even if the customer facing part is closed but I don't know for sure.

tdgeek

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#2822982 2-Dec-2021 09:11

wellygary:

More cones and Tape...

That will be interesting. They may as well wear anti vax T shirts! Boos and hisses from either side of the tape.

DS248

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#2822999 2-Dec-2021 09:54

Sup:

I understand what you are saying. A few points though:

If my recollection is correct, in NZ at least 'third dose' seems to refer to a situation where certain (immune compromised?) individuals receive three doses in relatively quick succession if two doses do not provide adequate immune response.
There is an element of restoration of immunity from the third/booster dose 5 - 6 months after the second. As other data from Israel and elsewhere have shown that immunity wanes over 4 - 6 months after the second dose (noting that of course, in Israel the standard gap between first and second doses was 3 weeks - as is the case for many in NZ)
A relatively minor point. As I understand it, the typical gap between the second and third/booster doses in Israel was ~5 months.

... Point taken on the waning of immunity, This goes further, but i understand you are not arguing that aspect. ...

Correct, no argument.

I agree with your characterisation of these being "third routine shots in a three shot course". The current MOH 'third' doses should be redefined as supplementary doses.

With the compelling data now available, the Pfizer (& other) vaccines should be re-specified as three dose regimes.

And it is time that the WHO recognised this. Universal vaccine availability is a crucially important, but separate issue.

With the advent of Delta, evidence from a number of highly vaccinated jurisdictions shows that the current two doses are not sufficient to protect health systems in the intermediate, let alone longer term.

Oblivian

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#2823000 2-Dec-2021 09:55

tdgeek:

So, if the store is in the middle of the mall, and the only access is by entering the mall, the mall must have a process. So to me that means they need a guard to escort a shopper to and from the store. I cannot see any other way. Or maybe a myriad of gated walkways. The legislation should include "if practical", maybe it does elsewhere? Im not a lawyer or legislation writer, but Id assume if the mall cannot provide access, then either the mall does not operate or the internal store does not operate?

I expect we will see fencing at Northlands (chc) and the entire area pass checked at the door as they are in a common area. McDonalds I think nationwide have also gone no pass no entry - drive through only. Or contactless takeaway. For a seated food court thats double trouble.

Scott3

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#2823072 2-Dec-2021 10:45

tdgeek:

Scott3:

Allows the government to be the enforcer, and the general public can just be kind to each other.

1. Enforcer? Not sure how well that will go down. Could double the size of the Police and military I guess but thats not a quick enforcement solution

2. Kind to each other? I think most of us already are, and most of us comply, yet here we are.

You can "manage" a situation or you can force it. Human nature being what it is, the former is not easy but its moving matters forward. The latter will probably cause more issues than it fixes.

1. I don't think the enforcement of a vaccine mandate would need to highly involve the police or military. We can now look to other countries that have gone that route as to how they are managing it.

As an example Greece has a mandate for those 60+ kicking in on Jan 16. Those that don't comply will be fined 100 euro every month.

I think doing it via the IRD would be easyist. 55% special income tax rate for the eligible but unvaccinated. We could even give the extra tax collected back when they do choose to be vaccinated as an incentive.

2. With what I see, kindness has gone seriously downhill over the last couple of months.

- The whole thing with the (now abandoned) 90% eligible fully vacillation target's to relax restrictions caused a lot of people to become very angry at the unvaccinated.

- Social media seems (both pro & anti vaccination channels) seem to have a raft of businesses who's decision to run a vaccine pass system, or run contact-less is being either met with praise, and promises of either support or boycott.

- Certain groups are blocking public roads & denying lawfull travel. Hit one such roadblock myself. Definitely not a kind outcome.

- Talk of a group planning to block lawful travel to the bay of islands, a major tourism area where I have family. Rightly that has got many people upset.

- Anti vax / Anti lockdown / Anti mandate protests marketed as "The great gridlock" that were basically set up to inconvenience random people.

Sadly much of the above is often stacked in with a bunch of Racism, as low vaccination rates of a particular ethnic group are often identified as the reason for higher restrictions.

Scott3

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#2823193 2-Dec-2021 12:29

What is going on in Victoria is a bit worrying.

They have a similar level of vaccination to us, (93.3% 1st dose and 90.9% 2nd dose of 16+ (we are about 93% 1st and 86% 2nd of the 12+ age group).

But they seem to have broken out of their declining trend in case numbers, and are showing growth in case numbers with a high baseline. 1419 cases and 10 deaths today.

By comparison both NZ and NSW are doing really well. Flat to slightly declining case numbers, well under 300 a day.

tdgeek

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#2823202 2-Dec-2021 12:40

Scott3:

What is going on in Victoria is a bit worrying.

They have a similar level of vaccination to us, (93.3% 1st dose and 90.9% 2nd dose of 16+ (we are about 93% 1st and 86% 2nd of the 12+ age group).

But they seem to have broken out of their declining trend in case numbers, and are showing growth in case numbers with a high baseline. 1419 cases and 10 deaths today.

By comparison both NZ and NSW are doing really well. Flat to slightly declining case numbers, well under 300 a day.

Is there any data on how many are vaccinated and how many unvaccinated? Vaccinated can get Covid, so as they occupy 90+% of the population, Id expect more cases for that reason. Overseas they say its an epidemic of the unvaccinated, wont that happen here? Easy spread, by themselves and from the vaccinated also

ezbee

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#2823244 2-Dec-2021 14:21

Vaccination
Number of first doses bumped for second day yesterday 7,856.
Gap between first and second does not seem to be widening significantly so people seem to be following through with second dose ?
Its a pity its not larger numbers, but with populations its 'run what ya brung'

First Taupo then Tauranga, now Nelson.
Strip clubs and ventilation probably not a thing.
With hot summer nights, maybe strip clubs can go alfresco ?

Nelson's Secrets Gentlemens strip club visited by Covid case
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-nelsons-secrets-gentlemens-strip-club-visited-by-covid-case/ZSKQWALGBJQAUDODWRBDFEQ3LM/?c_id=1&objectid=12489958

Viral spread is very much this mix of its capabilities and variable behavior of the host.

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