2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2857911 28-Jan-2022 18:22

Jase2985:

chatterbox: Home iso no different from MIQ. The only difference is you have more control of incoming kiwis than you do the ones in country. Which basically comes down to… who do you trust and who don’t you trust? Would you trust yourself to home quarantine effectively?

it absolutly is different, you can easily walk out your door at home and go anywhere you wanted while isolating at home, the only thing stopping you doing that is YOU. and its pretty easy to say na haven't been anywhere. You rely on people doing the right thing.

Try walking about the door at MIQ. its not very easy.

That is why home isolation is a bit of a waste of time IMO in terms of preventing the virus getting in . Many people may initially do the right thing, but if they see others openly flouting it and without penalty or a wet bus ticket, then that will erode compliance. I know people who openly flouted it it March 2020 before MIQ came in. Plus you can't stop people visiting. Incoming people into NZ with the virus is what seeds it and create new links of transmission.

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Paul1977

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#2857913 28-Jan-2022 18:24

Jase2985:

it absolutly is different, you can easily walk out your door at home and go anywhere you wanted while isolating at home, the only thing stopping you doing that is YOU. and its pretty easy to say na haven't been anywhere. You rely on people doing the right thing.

Try walking about the door at MIQ. its not very easy.

If I tested positive tomorrow I get to isolate at home don't I, so why does a returning Kiwi have to stay in MIQ facility? Is a returning Kiwi somehow less trustworthy?

tdgeek

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#2857914 28-Jan-2022 18:27

chatterbox:

Home iso no different from MIQ. The only difference is you have more control of incoming kiwis than you do the ones in country. Which basically comes down to… who do you trust and who don’t you trust? Would you trust yourself to home quarantine effectively?

Home is different to MIQ. I trust myself so home is safe for y'all. Go back 2 years. Lockdowns, every other comment in this thread then was about flouters. Now, not everyone is a flouter, but with Omicron, one flouter = big cases. But the bottom line is, you cannot seperate me from everyone else.

tdgeek

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#2857922 28-Jan-2022 18:31

mattwnz:

That is why home isolation is a bit of a waste of time IMO in terms of preventing the virus getting in . Many people may initially do the right thing, but if they see others openly flouting it and without penalty or a wet bus ticket, then that will erode compliance. I know people who openly flouted it it March 2020 before MIQ came in. Plus you can't stop people visiting. Incoming people into NZ with the virus is what seeds it and create new links of transmission.

Yep.

What would you do? Tell home isolation people to stay home? $1000 fine?

mattwnz

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#2857924 28-Jan-2022 18:31

Paul1977:

Jase2985:

it absolutly is different, you can easily walk out your door at home and go anywhere you wanted while isolating at home, the only thing stopping you doing that is YOU. and its pretty easy to say na haven't been anywhere. You rely on people doing the right thing.

Try walking about the door at MIQ. its not very easy.

If I tested positive tomorrow I get to isolate at home don't I, so why does a returning Kiwi have to stay in MIQ facility? Is a returning Kiwi somehow less trustworthy?

Potentially the infect people when getting home, and creating a line of transmission. eg Taxi driver, a bus full of people, people in the airport etc. Then they potetnially infect all the current people living in the home. It is basically like planting a new seed for transmission. NZ is currently in 'suppression' mode, albeit with no lockdowns. But I wouldn't be surprised to see restrictions come in if cases climb too quickly to 'flatten the curve'

Paul1977

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#2857926 28-Jan-2022 18:33

mattwnz:

That is why home isolation is a bit of a waste of time IMO in terms of preventing the virus getting in . Many people may initially do the right thing, but if they see others openly flouting it and without penalty or a wet bus ticket, then that will erode compliance. I know people who openly flouted it it March 2020 before MIQ came in. Plus you can't stop people visiting. Incoming people into NZ with the virus is what seeds it and create new links of transmission.

I disagree, enough people will do the right thing to make a diffrence. The idea is meant to now be to slow the spread, elimination is no longer possible (it never really was) yet the policies around isolation haven't caught up the the realities of the situation.

Soon we'll be getting 1000s of cases a day, which will mean 10s of 1000s isolating at home. When we have 50,000 people isolated at home, what will the justification be for forcing returning Kiwis to isolate at MIQ facilities?

tdgeek

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#2857928 28-Jan-2022 18:35

mattwnz:

Potentially the infect people when getting home, and creating a line of transmission. eg Taxi driver, a bus full of people, people in the airport etc. Then they potetnially infect all the current people living in the home. It is basically like planting a new seed for transmission. NZ is currently in 'suppression' mode, albeit with no lockdowns. But I wouldn't be surprised to see restrictions come in if cases climb too quickly to 'flatten the curve'

We are not in suppression mode. We were, to get vaxxes up, so when Omicron gets here, the hospital beds and ICU can cope better.

Omicron is here. Not anyone's choice but the inevitable has arrived.

Yes, I can see restrictions happen, thats already been stated. Its about beds and ICU.

Paul1977

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#2857929 28-Jan-2022 18:37

mattwnz:

...NZ is currently in 'suppression' mode...

That's just a placeholder while the Government try to figure out a real plan.

tdgeek

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#2857931 28-Jan-2022 18:42

Paul1977:

I disagree, enough people will do the right thing to make a diffrence. The idea is meant to now be to slow the spread, elimination is no longer possible (it never really was) yet the policies around isolation haven't caught up the the realities of the situation.

Soon we'll be getting 1000s of cases a day, which will mean 10s of 1000s isolating at home. When we have 50,000 people isolated at home, what will the justification be for forcing returning Kiwis to isolate at MIQ facilities?

Agree, but IIRC, Ive read that the borders will become less an issue when its rife here. It wont matter if its from Ponsonby or Bondi. But thats a way off yet. NZ has held firm, held it back, learn from others who "let it go". Id wager the PM and Dr Ashley have no idea what to do next as all along, its about reaction. Wait as long as you can, learn from others, then react. Back in the day it was NZ is so cool, no Covid. Nothing has changed. We are still in a position where we can view others, see what happened to them, THEN react.

tdgeek

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#2857934 28-Jan-2022 18:46

Paul1977:

That's just a placeholder while the Government try to figure out a real plan.

Whats the "real" plan? They, like you and I don't have a crystal ball.

Not pointing this at you, but what grinds my gears is the expectation of perfection when the future is completely unknown. Omicron may be a big nothing, or it may kill many that didnt need to die. Who wants to pick a number and choose that?

Paul1977

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#2857938 28-Jan-2022 19:08

tdgeek:

Whats the "real" plan? They, like you and I don't have a crystal ball.

Not pointing this at you, but what grinds my gears is the expectation of perfection when the future is completely unknown. Omicron may be a big nothing, or it may kill many that didnt need to die. Who wants to pick a number and choose that?

I don't know what the "real" plan should, but it's not my job to come up with it.

What they should have been doing for the past 2 years is fast tracking immigration of medical professionals into NZ and increasing ICU (and general hospital) capacity.

I understand that hindsight's a beautiful thing, but it really seems like the governments only plan has been to stop it at the border with very little thought given to what happens in the event of a real mass outbreak - which has always been a possibility. They've had 2 years to prepare, but they still seem to have been caught with their pants down.

chatterbox

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#2857939 28-Jan-2022 19:12

Jase2985:
chatterbox: Home iso no different from MIQ. The only difference is you have more control of incoming kiwis than you do the ones in country. Which basically comes down to… who do you trust and who don’t you trust? Would you trust yourself to home quarantine effectively?

it absolutly is different, you can easily walk out your door at home and go anywhere you wanted while isolating at home, the only thing stopping you doing that is YOU. and its pretty easy to say na haven't been anywhere. You rely on people doing the right thing.

Try walking about the door at MIQ. its not very easy.

@freitasm are kiwis in NZ covid positive more or less trustworthy than those incoming from overseas with respect to home isolation? And why is there a difference in the options provided to each category?

@jase2985 if positives isolate at home yes without lying etc, there is no increased risk to NZ. That’s obvious.

I’ll pose the same question to you that I did to freitasm regarding covid positives. Why can community positives isolate at home but not incoming?

Especially in NZ where elimination isn’t a sustainable strategy?

The people who need boosting know who they are, they’re the elderly and the vulnerable. They were prioritized last year and stand to gain the most from boosters keeping them out of hospital. Boosting a healthy 30 year old to prevent them from getting a snotty nose is hardly the sound policy borders were based on, so whilst they’re eligible, there’s no reason to keep MIQ to protect healthy double vaxxed against an illness that won’t put them in hospital or won’t keep them there for prolonged periods. With vaccination the balance has shifted in a major way. The unvaccinated, well, they’ve had their opportunities.

So home iso is a perfectly reasonable plan and has been for some time however border policy assessors haven’t had the skill to make these decisions. If the Victorian review was anything to go by, NZ are just as bad if not worse at making these assessments. And I find it absolutely crazy that kiwis are ok with this without weighing up both sides.

Will genuinely be curious when NZ is actually living with the virus who actually believes life is much different to what they experience now?

tdgeek

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#2857940 28-Jan-2022 19:16

Paul1977:

I don't know what the "real" plan should, but it's not my job to come up with it.

What they should have been doing for the past 2 years is fast tracking immigration of medical professionals into NZ and increasing ICU (and general hospital) capacity.

I understand that hindsight's a beautiful thing, but it really seems like the governments only plan has been to stop it at the border with very little thought given to what happens in the event of a real mass outbreak - which has always been a possibility. They've had 2 years to prepare, but they still seem to have been caught with their pants down.

March 26, 2020. Lockdown. One party said we would have done it sooner, 2 weeks later its too long its too much. If your proposals were made then, good as they are, it would have been laughed out of court. Back then , look at SARS. Covid-19 is SARS 2.0. SARS was harsh but it was gone in no time. Had it been its too much its too long and we let it go, god knows where we would be now, well I guess where many other first world countries are now. Its health vs political. Political you can always vote them out, death you can't. IMHO holding out so we can evaluate has been the best policy. Thats not a political statement its a reality statement.

tdgeek

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#2857941 28-Jan-2022 19:23

chatterbox:

@freitasm are kiwis in NZ covid positive more or less trustworthy than those incoming from overseas with respect to home isolation? And why is there a difference in the options provided to each category?

@jase2985 if positives isolate at home yes without lying etc, there is no increased risk to NZ. That’s obvious.

I’ll pose the same question to you that I did to freitasm regarding covid positives. Why can community positives isolate at home but not incoming?

Especially in NZ where elimination isn’t a sustainable strategy?

The people who need boosting know who they are, they’re the elderly and the vulnerable. They were prioritized last year and stand to gain the most from boosters keeping them out of hospital. Boosting a healthy 30 year old to prevent them from getting a snotty nose is hardly the sound policy borders were based on, so whilst they’re eligible, there’s no reason to keep MIQ to protect healthy double vaxxed against an illness that won’t put them in hospital or won’t keep them there for prolonged periods. With vaccination the balance has shifted in a major way. The unvaccinated, well, they’ve had their opportunities.

So home iso is a perfectly reasonable plan and has been for some time however border policy assessors haven’t had the skill to make these decisions. If the Victorian review was anything to go by, NZ are just as bad if not worse at making these assessments. And I find it absolutely crazy that kiwis are ok with this without weighing up both sides.

Will genuinely be curious when NZ is actually living with the virus who actually believes life is much different to what they experience now?

Good points, BUT, if you extracted 100 incoming in MIQ and 100 randoms, the propensity to be Omicron positive is vastly skewed to MIQ people. Thats now, so why exacerbate the internal NZ issue? If and when its rife here it doesnt matter. But its not rife here, so dont add to it.

freitasm

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#2857944 28-Jan-2022 19:35

@chatterbox: Will genuinely be curious when NZ is actually living with the virus who actually believes life is much different to what they experience now?

I will put it simply. MIQ exists so we have time to vaccinate and boost. It exists so that less people end up in hospital or dead sooner.

You may not agree but as far as I am concerned we still have had less deaths than other countries.

If that's not a win then our values are different.

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