2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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1685 posts

Uber Geek

#2858541 30-Jan-2022 16:15

vexxxboy:

mattwnz:

There has been so much coverage of this. But this isn't new, people have been having trouble getting MIQ spots as there are only a limited number of them. Maybe it is time for them to get some MIQs run by private companies using empty hotels? We are going to have other pandemics as the world opens up are humans encroach more into nature.

because that worked so well with prisons

Old Mt Eden Prison is prime real-estate doing nothing ?
It could be an adventure tourism MIQ. People may queue up to get in.
Staff taking plenty of photos for the Instagram.

Planned covid safe escape attempts recreating famous Mt Eden incidents.

The conversion cost may even be recoverable, run later as a character hotel.
Dark tourism is a thing.

Hi de Hi with bars !

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mattwnz

19385 posts

Uber Geek

#2858556 30-Jan-2022 17:00

vexxxboy:

mattwnz:

There has been so much coverage of this. But this isn't new, people have been having trouble getting MIQ spots as there are only a limited number of them. Maybe it is time for them to get some MIQs run by private companies using empty hotels? We are going to have other pandemics as the world opens up are humans encroach more into nature.

because that worked so well with prisons

Aren't at least some privately operated. But MIQ is not prison so not really a comparison.

bazzer

3438 posts

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#2858568 30-Jan-2022 17:33

Oblivian:
rugrat:

If you are scanning, isn’t the notification that someone was at a LOI suppose to be automatic.

I don’t read the locations of interest as I expect the Covid Applic to let me know.

Not really, no. It relies on the other party using it. And agreeing to upload their data. Else it gets to a point where it's too late once found out to send one, or not classified enough risk.

(they have been for high risk.. see above)
And almost forget bluetooth unless they changed criteria.

Should be using the list primarily. Per Dr B in standups. But it may ping if all the stars align

That doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure what the "other party" is, but once it makes the list it should be possible to match up places you've checked in with places on the list. If that's not happening, that defeats half the purpose of the app in my opinion.

Oblivian

6945 posts

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#2858577 30-Jan-2022 18:09

bazzer:
That doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure what the "other party" is, but once it makes the list it should be possible to match up places you've checked in with places on the list. If that's not happening, that defeats half the purpose of the app in my opinion.

Other party. The confirmed infected and infectious person.
Should they not agree to share their movement (if they are even bothering you use the app)
It goes full manual tracing. Slows down. Takes longer to get/extract accurate info out of the infected person. And no, matching the issues IDs given to locations when done manually to send a alert with a registered ID slows it down more. Because not everyone registered the right info. Using scanned data. Faster.

Which is why when they do, you get ~10 lois very soon after being pinpointed.

Doing it manually because they decide to not use it, or share it. And it Ends up out of date. And a waste of time. Or only some very specific high risk locations receiving an alert rather than most of the infected persons movements at once. Tying up tracers for longer than needed.

So they are updating the website as revealed. Because it is just plain old reaching more people, when bugger all are scanning now. (A lot less of the population than we need to be)

Exhibit a. The PMs flight. Announced a WEEK later.

Here is the pricacy statement/agreement for the app to enlighten this more.

The App
functionality to Upload Information
is voluntary as to whether the
individual forwards the electronic
copy of information that has been
collected on their Digital Diary.
Even if the Consumer does not
agree to Upload the information
from their mobile device it could
be used as a reminder to the
Consumer in their discussions
with the Contact Tracer.
Consumers who wish to activate
Bluetooth Tracing will be
collecting their own information on
their device, and permitting others
to collect the RPI they generate.
Any Consumer who tests positive
will have the choice whether to
upload the information – and they
will be in charge of initiating the
upload process from their device if
they choose to do so.

So essentially. If you don't want people to know you frequently a gentleman club. It slows the process.

Daynger

384 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2858686 30-Jan-2022 19:40

rugrat:

If you are scanning, isn’t the notification that someone was at a LOI suppose to be automatic.

I don’t read the locations of interest as I expect the Covid Applic to let me know.

That is what i thought too, until i had an email from a building manager informing me their building was a LOI and the timeframe included me.

Then the phone call from MOH.

App did nothing to inform me of anything at any point.

bazzer

3438 posts

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#2858692 30-Jan-2022 20:02

Oblivian: So essentially. If you don't want people to know you frequently a gentleman club. It slows the process.

Sure, but that's the other side of the equation, i.e. identifying the LOIs in the first place.

We were talking about the best way to know if you've been at a LOI once they are identified. It's not very efficient to expect everyone to scour through the website trying to doublecheck against the list they've kept of the places they've been. That's ridiculous! If the app is not checking your diary against the MoH's list of LOI then that's pretty silly. Are you sure that's the case?

Why do some people get alerted? Even if it is a week late, that is as soon as the place was identified, so you can't really do better than that. It would be great if the app preempted that, but I wouldn't really expect that.

Geektastic

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#2858694 30-Jan-2022 20:05

Does anyone have an explanation for the seemingly irrational decision to ban the import of RATs?

I read that importing them was specifically banned by. Dr Bloomfield but not why.

bazzer

3438 posts

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#2858695 30-Jan-2022 20:06

Daynger:

That is what i thought too, until i had an email from a building manager informing me their building was a LOI and the timeframe included me. Then the phone call from MOH.

App did nothing to inform me of anything at any point.

I'd be really interested to know why not, especially if that's how it's meant to work. I'm sure there's an explanation and I know that some people do get notified so it would be really great to understand how that process is meant to work. Honestly, that was the main motivation for using the app. Sure, it's pretty handy to keep track of the places you've visited with it, but for 2 years I haven't had covid (so the diary side has been pretty useless) and I was expecting it would give me a heads-up if I were ever in the same place as a positive case.

Edit: the website sure makes it sound like you should get a location alert.

bazzer

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#2858696 30-Jan-2022 20:08

Geektastic: Does anyone have an explanation for the seemingly irrational decision to ban the import of RATs?

I read that importing them was specifically banned by. Dr Bloomfield but not why.

Probably reliability? If they were for personal use only it probably wouldn't matter but if they were being used for some kind of proof of status, you'd want them to be acquired from approved sources surely.

cokemaster

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#2858746 30-Jan-2022 20:22

@Geektastic & @bazzer, I have a few OIA requests in the fire on this matter but I suspect it is a combination of:

Reliability - there is a bit of a variance between accuracy rates.
However I believe it is primarily about: Centralised surveillance. The government wants to know who, where and when people were tested and the results. Potentially opening up RAT's breaks that cycle as covid positive folks might not phone in their results, making it more difficult for the government to track infection activity.

I don't happen to agree with this stance but this is what I'm gleaning so far.

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Oblivian

6945 posts

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ID Verified

#2858748 30-Jan-2022 20:28

bazzer:
Edit: the website sure makes it sound like you should get a location alert.

We've gone over it in the covid tracer app specific thread.

That was july 21. Since then this come to light.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/08/29/less-than-10-bluetooth-covid-tracer-app-notifications-sent-in-delta-outbreak/

And since THEN a very specific set of criteria has been made to not overrun tracing and If there is any alerts to be pushed to not freak people en masse. It appers quite selective (also depending on timeframe, might not get one for a 5min visit of a supermarket)

If the people being traced agree to share their diary. It'll produces a tick box with all their scans. Believe they go through these and rank them as likely to meet the criteria to be high risk to other and use as a mass alert alongside a loi update. Or just push to the website as broad.
Reality is, as you see by the example above. It seems it is not always done.

And many times dr Bloomfield has reminded us to check the manual list of locations..(presumably due the actual lack of people actually using and dumping their diaries)

And that list too is not all of them. And if found later to be of less risk, they even pull them off again.

So in short, yes. Theor good.. practice varies. And like most alerting systems. Dont just rely on 1 layer. Use 2.

Just like how saying 'i never got the cell broadcast' alerts just show a dent in one piece of armour. Websites and radio/media also get used.

vexxxboy

4088 posts

Uber Geek

#2858847 30-Jan-2022 20:49

mattwnz:

There has been so much coverage of this. But this isn't new, people have been having trouble getting MIQ spots as there are only a limited number of them. Maybe it is time for them to get some MIQs run by private companies using empty hotels? We are going to have other pandemics as the world opens up are humans encroach more into nature.

because that worked so well with prisons

Aren't at least some privately operated. But MIQ is not prison so not really a comparison.

it's all the same , as soon as a public service operation are run to make a profit then things dont end well, they are just not compatible.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

Buster

297 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2858848 30-Jan-2022 20:52

Geektastic: Does anyone have an explanation for the seemingly irrational decision to ban the import of RATs?

I read that importing them was specifically banned by. Dr Bloomfield but not why.

As was stated 'very dubious results'. By the time it gives a positive result everyone near you knows you are unwell with something. Wonder if they have covid?

Air NZ and other large business pushed real hard for them to get the show back on the road, despite knowing they are of limited value.

Of all the ones available in Australia only one claims to even detect omicron. Just don't stress over them.

I have a box of the Abbott ones. I must be a critical worker.

ezbee

1685 posts

Uber Geek

#2858857 30-Jan-2022 21:58

Problem is not all RATS are created equal, a variety of products, technologies and large variance in quality.
I think the UK they found only about 30% of brands submitted passed their standards.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/assessment-and-procurement-of-coronavirus-covid-19-tests/outcome-of-the-evaluation-of-rapid-diagnostic-assays-for-specific-sars-cov-2-antigens-lateral-flow-devices

Though pre omicron mind you.

Severe shortage of good ones, may mean that the available, cheep & cheerfull may be... Well...
Like the N95s that were miraculously found when supply was tight that turned out to be counterfeit.

Then its how you do the test and how to interpret, do you spend $$ on another test tomorrow or next day in case ?
How accurate is your RAT? 3 scenarios show it’s about more than looking for lines
https://theconversation.com/how-accurate-is-your-rat-3-scenarios-show-its-about-more-than-looking-for-lines-175515

Rapid nose swab tests for COVID may not detect Omicron quickly enough -expert says
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/rapid-nose-swab-tests-covid-may-not-detect-omicron-quickly-enough-expert-says-2022-01-07/

I wonder if omicron tossed a spanner in approval works, vs just blindly ordering and hoping.

Those Yellowcoats, so trusting, Hi De Hi

Geektastic

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#2858967 31-Jan-2022 08:00

cokemaster:
@Geektastic & @bazzer, I have a few OIA requests in the fire on this matter but I suspect it is a combination of:

Reliability - there is a bit of a variance between accuracy rates.

However I believe it is primarily about: Centralised surveillance. The government wants to know who, where and when people were tested and the results. Potentially opening up RAT's breaks that cycle as covid positive folks might not phone in their results, making it more difficult for the government to track infection activity.

I don't happen to agree with this stance but this is what I'm gleaning so far.

You might be correct. Of course I expect there are (or will be) plenty of instances of people who get it and don't bother testing at all as a consequence so I'm not sure it's sensible.

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