2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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168 posts

Master Geek

#3234372 24-May-2024 18:23

cruxis: One even said "I got proof miss see here is my RAT test result" . 😁

I can just think about how many employers are requiring staff to go into work even if they have Covid.

quickymart

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#3234390 24-May-2024 19:27

I'm thinking I should get my coronavirus booster. My manager had his the other week and was telling me it helps with all the current strains going around.

chatterbox

204 posts

Master Geek

#3234391 24-May-2024 19:29

I don't actually think you need a study for masks. The reality is NZ had a mask mandate across the board when borders opened and covid still flew through the country. It's real world results that matter the most. That's why I don't see the point in making masks mandatory anywhere. I believe most transmission occurred in homes also.

Most people dropped masking like hot cakes when they didn't have to mask showing how much people dislike masks. For people who want/need to mask they are currently free to mask. Even staff in health don't like wearing masks all the time. Kids aren't great at wearing masks, people coughing or with difficulty breathing struggle with masks, demented or confused or mental health means those people won't wear masks in healthcare settings.

It's also unenforceable and I wouldn't want bus drivers or police etc to be responsible for reinforcement. They've got more urgent matters to attend.

From a government perspective, a mask mandate isn't one you'd want to adopt. It's a sure fire way to get yourself booted out. Also the majority of people you're trying to get to mask in certain situations wouldn't actually have covid which is a raw deal for them. I've had one bout of covid the entire time. I can't imagine wearing a mask for 4 years for one bout of covid. And I'm not even trying to avoid covid. I just go about my business. That cost benefit ratio just doesn't work. I've had a minor sniffle for a few days, tested negative for covid and flu etc and went to work with a blue mask on for 3 days. I'm far more beneficial to people at work than calling in sick because I might pass something on. You'd have most of your childcare workers, teachers, students off, and healthcare workers away causing far worse disruptions than covid itself does.

Mask mandates won't be making a comeback unless a situation arises that calls for it. It also requires the goodwill of the public and that just doesn't exist right now.

I can't see any country adopting masks due to these reviews. The best message would have been to recommend people mask when sick and stay away from retirement villages, prisons, restaurants etc, but not supermarkets. That's not practical.

PolicyGuy

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#3234427 24-May-2024 20:47

mattwnz:

Apparently waste water testing showed a big hike and hospital cases have risen a lot. But this is predicable due to heading into winter and few people taking precautions.

Yup, by far the highest level in the last twelve months:

from: https://www.poops.nz/, data to 19th May 2024

gzt

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#3234450 24-May-2024 21:57

FineWine:
Interesting article in todays Herald about how NZ government needs to review and update the use of masks to help prevent the spread of respiratory viruses such as COVID, influenza and bird flu and all the very evolving changes in these viruses.

An important implication of the review is that New Zealanders need better access to effective masks. Cloth face coverings and disposable medical masks can help reduce infection risk, but respirators such as N95 and FFP2 provide a significantly higher level of protection.

Winter illnesses: Are we prepared for influenza, bird flu, and another Covid-19 wave? - The Front Page

University of Otago's Michael Baker among health experts calling for better face mask use in New Zealand after international study on effectiveness

Actual study here: Masks and respirators for prevention of respiratory infections: a state of the science review

I still have a half box of the blue paper masks at home. Back in 2020 I did a geekzone article on the correct way to wear masks. Now I think is a good time to revisit that article.

Most non-medical persons are:

1 - buying the incorrect mask type and size. It should be Type N95 or P2 or P3 or better and be adult or child size - one size does not fit all
2 - not fitting any mask properly to begin with - there must be no leaks in or out
3 - not washing hands prior to fitting
4 - tying their masks on incorrectly - tie bottom ties first, then top ties last and do the reverse when removing mask
5 - do not cross over the ties or loops. This squeezes the masks sides open around the cheek
6 - not washing hands after removal and sensible disposal of mask
7 - fiddling/touching the mask once fitted correctly - keep your hands away from your entire face

As you would have read in the above study, the best type of respirators such as N95 and FFP2 provide a significantly higher level of protection than the ordinary blue paper ones and even those home made cloth ones.

Here is the link to the Health NZ website on Face Masks. Though after reading the above study I think that that website needs to be updated to reflect those findings.

Of course to get people to wear them is another ball game altogether. My advice if you have flu like symptoms and you have to leave your place of residence or you are in an area of high concentration of people eg. work, supermarkets, movie/theatre houses and all forms of public transport, wear one.

I think I read several of these articles previously and did not see a good summary.

Thanks for the study link.The study summary has "Second, masks are, if correctly and consistently worn, effective in reducing transmission of respiratory diseases and show a dose-response effect." I believe that 100%. My interest is around what kind of masks were used, and how effective they were. Lastly, dose-response in relation to masks is unclear to me.

If I take the time to read the study I'm sure it's all clear I'm just looking for a cheat sheet.

chatterbox

204 posts

Master Geek

#3235032 26-May-2024 19:47

gzt:
I think I read several of these articles previously and did not see a good summary.

Thanks for the study link.The study summary has "Second, masks are, if correctly and consistently worn, effective in reducing transmission of respiratory diseases and show a dose-response effect." I believe that 100%. My interest is around what kind of masks were used, and how effective they were. Lastly, dose-response in relation to masks is unclear to me.

If I take the time to read the study I'm sure it's all clear I'm just looking for a cheat sheet.

The masks they're advocating for are N95 or equivalent.

The analysed studies themselves vary with comparisons between cloth medical and N95 with some variations in outcomes.

re:dose - response, here are some snippets

1. they too found a dose-response effect with adherence and concluded that “The studies [of mask efficacy] that did not find statistically significant effects prove only that masks cannot offer protection if they are not worn”

2. A community-based case-control study performed in California found a dose-response relationship between both mask or respirator quality and frequency of use and reduction in SARS-CoV-2 risk: the aOR for SARS-CoV-2 infection associated with mask use was 0.44 (95% CI 0.24–0.82); surgical mask aOR was 0.34 (95% CI 0.13–0.90), and respirator use aOR was 0.17 (95% CI 0.05–0.64) (179).

In terms of how effective they are well that depends on which study you want to read. The one with the hamsters separated by surgical mask material was 75%, or the 74 fold reduction with FFPs (N95 equivalent) when modelling was used. No people involved. Or the modelling estimating reduction somewhere between 39-100% with masks (that range is SO not useful).

Interestingly the community analysis involved comments that compliance with masks was low. None of them hit 50%. One comment was that universal masking reduced transmission by 25%. This seems consistent with Bloomfields comment winter 2022 that modelling suggested a 20% reduction in the peak if we kept masks.

For healthcare workers consistent use of N95 resulted in dramatic reduction, although one study said the blue surgical masks were 77% effective. I hadn't copy pasted that one but it's in there somewhere. i haven't looked at the studies referenced in any depth except noting a couple of them were modelling studies - ugh..

The authors want to push for a policy change eg masks on public transport, healthcare settings, aged care etc. I'm not sure they'll stop there. I have my doubts anything will come of their study though. It's already getting picked apart on Twitter although replies have been restricted as the authors don't appear willing to address the concerns raised. eg Trish Greenhalgh, Joe Vipond stopped responding. There are some errors. Also only a single peer reviewer for the article. And its been noted their results may not support their conclusion as strongly as they think. From the authors I recognize, they're not exactly known for being balanced in their approach to covid.

Scott3

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#3235098 26-May-2024 23:12

Scott3:

2x people at an event I was at 6 days ago are confirmed as having covid.

I am wondering it it is time for another booster. Last year I was holding off having a booster until just before I traveled in December, but ended up getting my second infection in November.

Seen as I appear to have missed infection from that event, and the amount of covid-19 going around I decided to hit the button a booster today (and got the flu vaccine too)

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cddt

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#3235135 27-May-2024 09:32

chatterbox:

The reality is NZ had a mask mandate across the board when borders opened and covid still flew through the country. It's real world results that matter the most.

Agreed. If there was a respiratory illness which had an R0 of say 1.4, then diligent mask use could drive that number under 1, so stop the spread. A respiratory illness with an R0 of 2.5 (e.g. original covid-19) might be slowed somewhat by mask use, but won't be stopped, the growth will still be exponential. Now that the R0 of covid is even higher, masks will have even less of an effect.

My referral links: BigPipe | Mercury

Canuckabroad

176 posts

Master Geek

#3235144 27-May-2024 09:58

If masks work by reducing spread by a percentage of the number of cases, isn't a larger number of incidences of illness a better opportunity where there's more benefits from mask wearing? I acknowledge that highly transmissible strains do limit the effectiveness of mitigations, but by their effective nature they also tend to cause lots of infections where even small reductions in proportions of cases can be the difference between the health system coping and a huge outbreak overwhelming things?

Oblivian

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#3235208 27-May-2024 12:36

Yeap.

Science is cool and all. But seems odd everyone leans more to the side of 'oh well it didn't work' and brush off any impact. No matter if there actually was one. Miniscule or otherwise.

We use the term every cent counts amount others when referring to small impacts that sre still an impact on a greater scheme

I'm sure it can apply to health. Gotta be why doctors still use them as a standard, right.

Scott3

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#3235219 27-May-2024 13:23

Canuckabroad:

If masks work by reducing spread by a percentage of the number of cases, isn't a larger number of incidences of illness a better opportunity where there's more benefits from mask wearing? I acknowledge that highly transmissible strains do limit the effectiveness of mitigations, but by their effective nature they also tend to cause lots of infections where even small reductions in proportions of cases can be the difference between the health system coping and a huge outbreak overwhelming things?

If the R0 with masks remains above 1, the virus is going to spread through the vast majority of the population regardless. The only benefit is slightly slowing how fast this happens. This could be positive, in terms of spreading the workload on the medical sector , but doesn't really have an impact on the individual's if they are going to get sick regardless.

If it can bring the R0 below 1, then it is game changing

sudo

391 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235256 27-May-2024 14:13

cddt:

chatterbox:

The reality is NZ had a mask mandate across the board when borders opened and covid still flew through the country. It's real world results that matter the most.

Agreed. If there was a respiratory illness which had an R0 of say 1.4, then diligent mask use could drive that number under 1, so stop the spread. A respiratory illness with an R0 of 2.5 (e.g. original covid-19) might be slowed somewhat by mask use, but won't be stopped, the growth will still be exponential. Now that the R0 of covid is even higher, masks will have even less of an effect.

My partner works in a hospital (in one of the labs) and they wear properly fitted N95s all day. Everyone ends up getting the latest string going around ... and bringing it home.

Half the time it seems to be asymptomatic, so they are always short of people who test positive so stay at home.

Canuckabroad

176 posts

Master Geek

#3235265 27-May-2024 14:34

The degree of exposure is certainly going to be a factor. I never used to get sick until I had a kid who started attending daycare, and now somebody is sick in the household probably 1/3 of the time because there is probably some kid sick at daycare 100% of the time even though they have the option (unlike a hospital) to send home anybody with symptoms and that means exposure is a lot higher.

Batwing

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#3235295 27-May-2024 15:32

Let's play devil's advocate and say masks don't bring the r0 of covid down enough to be a game changer.

Do they bring the prevalence of other illnesses down?

Do they have downsides for the wearer that are worth talking them out of wearing one?

We can't reduce everything to zero sum, in which case the cautionary principal may apply.

If someone has made the individual decision to give up precautions, that's great for them I guess but the least they could do is not advocate for others for follow suit (in my opinion)

quickymart

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#3235315 27-May-2024 17:10

sudo:

My partner works in a hospital (in one of the labs) and they wear properly fitted N95s all day. Everyone ends up getting the latest string going around ... and bringing it home.

String?

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