2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#3287898 30-Sep-2024 02:06

neb:

Is this an effect of subjective self-assessment? That is, without Covid people would just chalk it up to getting older if they noticed it at all, while with Covid you're more aware of it, in the same way that someone coughing in your vicinity has now become a cause for concern rather than something you'd barely notice.

There are plenty of studies using MRI's before vs after over shortish time frames like 3 years, for example this one

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10063523/

Naturally the research lags what's happening day to day and people want to live their lives (me too) but there's no way repeated infections over the years are going to be a good thing for life expectancy and quality of life for all of us.

You can already see it anecdotally in schools and workplaces, there's a lot more people off sick in non winter months. I can see it in younger co-workers who've had 4-5 infections, they are noticeably less sharp.

Batman

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#3287903 30-Sep-2024 07:13

Ragnor:
neb:

Is this an effect of subjective self-assessment? That is, without Covid people would just chalk it up to getting older if they noticed it at all, while with Covid you're more aware of it, in the same way that someone coughing in your vicinity has now become a cause for concern rather than something you'd barely notice.

There are plenty of studies using MRI's before vs after over shortish time frames like 3 years, for example this one

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10063523/

Naturally the research lags what's happening day to day and people want to live their lives (me too) but there's no way repeated infections over the years are going to be a good thing for life expectancy and quality of life for all of us.

You can already see it anecdotally in schools and workplaces, there's a lot more people off sick in non winter months. I can see it in younger co-workers who've had 4-5 infections, they are noticeably less sharp.

How do we know whether other viruses that are less popular and less intensely researched don't do the same.

spacedog

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#3287911 30-Sep-2024 08:17

Ragnor:

neb:

Is this an effect of subjective self-assessment? That is, without Covid people would just chalk it up to getting older if they noticed it at all, while with Covid you're more aware of it, in the same way that someone coughing in your vicinity has now become a cause for concern rather than something you'd barely notice.

There are plenty of studies using MRI's before vs after over shortish time frames like 3 years, for example this one

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10063523/

Naturally the research lags what's happening day to day and people want to live their lives (me too) but there's no way repeated infections over the years are going to be a good thing for life expectancy and quality of life for all of us.

You can already see it anecdotally in schools and workplaces, there's a lot more people off sick in non winter months. I can see it in younger co-workers who've had 4-5 infections, they are noticeably less sharp.

Yeah I read this one, too. But I would be very cautious to put too much weight in that particular study as well. It was also conducted back in 2021, the vaccination situation and variant status was very different then and the study cites that as something they couldn't easily account for and the age group in that study was 51-80 years old.

I certainly appreciate your observation that your co-workers are, "noticeably less sharp," but I'd also be cautious around making assumptions on an anecdotal basis like this and that your observations are not affected by your own confirmation bias.

I'm not discounting it entirely and I, generally, wonder the same thing, but I can't say I have noticed other people being less sharp due to covid. This is still a very 'iffy' area and, personally, I'm very very cautious about making any assumptions at this stage.

Frankly, it's still too early to tell yet and we need a lot more research.

This is all really confounded by the fact that NZ is also a real outlier against all this research data and probably always will be because our exposure profile (vaccination status, which vaccines, which variants, etc...) is just going to be so different compared to the UK and the USA that it would take some really focused research using NZ subjects in the sample.

This presents a pretty unique opportunity for long-covid research and I wonder if any overseas universities have partnered with NZ in anyway to look more deeply into this.

spacedog

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#3287914 30-Sep-2024 08:29

Batman:

How do we know whether other viruses that are less popular and less intensely researched don't do the same.

This is a good question to ask and an almost impossible one to answer.

Most garden variety viruses and non-corona viruses behave quite differently. This is where covid is fairly unique in its multi-system attacks. Other coronavirus may be having similar impacts, but Covid-19 has a pretty unique affinity to the ACE2 receptors.

But again, we have to really consider the possibility that pre-Omicron (Alpha-Delta) vs all the Omicron sub-lineages could be affecting all these studies carried out in 2021. The original strains have been long extinct and everything now is Omicron based. Notably in the study @Ragnor linked there is a lot of talk about Olfactory effects and the olfactory centers/cortex of the brain, but one of the things with Omicron was a significantly reduced occurrence of losing a sense of smell/taste as compared to Delta. So does that mean Omicron could be affecting the brain quiet differently than the subjects in those studies that all would have had Delta? A good question to ask, I think.

Other confounding factors include the economic, social and societal stress factors that the pandemic has imposed on people (social disruption, economic disruption, education and workplace disruption, depression, etc...).

Honestly, it's just kind of a mess to figure this one out from a hard-nosed research perspective!

alasta

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#3287919 30-Sep-2024 08:44

spacedog:

Batman:

How do we know whether other viruses that are less popular and less intensely researched don't do the same.

Most garden variety viruses and non-corona viruses behave quite differently. This is where covid is fairly unique in it's multi-system attacks.

Sure, but what about the four coronaviruses that were endemic in humans long before covid-19 came along? OC43 in particular seems likely to have created a pandemic very similar to covid-19 when it emerged 130 years ago but you don't hear a lot of discussion about it having serious long term effects. This would suggest one of the following possibilities:

Different types of coronavirus behave very differently.
Coronaviruses become more benign over a period of many decades.
The existing coronaviruses have similar impacts to covid-19 that have never been clearly identified.

spacedog

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#3287921 30-Sep-2024 08:51

alasta:

Sure, but what about the four coronaviruses that were endemic in humans long before covid-19 came along? OC43 in particular seems likely to have created a pandemic very similar to covid-19 when it emerged 130 years ago but you don't hear a lot of discussion about it having serious long term effects. This would suggest one of the following possibilities:

Different types of coronavirus behave very differently.
Coronaviruses become more benign over a period of many decades.
The existing coronaviruses have similar impacts to covid-19 that have never been clearly identified.

Yeah good points. I also just edited my previous response for more clarity. But the key difference here is probably the ACE2 receptor affinity and that ACE2 cells are in many parts of the body.

Canuckabroad

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#3287922 30-Sep-2024 08:52

Granted we're comparing anecdotal submissions of perceived impact rather than something entirely objective, but the problem statement is that things have changed in the last ~5 years. While there certainly have been endemic coronaviruses present long before that, it's unlikely that by themselves they suddenly started causing cognitive issues which they hadn't before. It's likely that the cause (if objectively-verified to be a thing) is either something to do with this new coronavirus, some kind of interaction between the new virus and the existing endemic ones, or some other cause which happened to correlate with the timeframe of the novel coronavirus while not being connected.

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Ragnor

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#3288870 2-Oct-2024 03:14

spacedog:

Yeah good points. I also just edited my previous response for more clarity. But the key difference here is probably the ACE2 receptor affinity and that ACE2 cells are in many parts of the body.

The ACE2 receptor is the big difference but also the spike protein itself

Here's a video explaining research where they infected mice with SARS-Cov2 and HCoV-NL63 and compared the results, a few years old now but still interesting

SARS-CoV2 Spike Protein Expression in Mice Causes Damage via Innate Immune System

Geektastic

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#3289995 2-Oct-2024 12:25

cddt:
Oblivian: No surprises in these results

Especially the 8 in 10 who no longer roll up sleeves to keep ontop

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-data-how-much-protection-is-the-covid-vaccine-giving-kiwis/QJKUGSDD5RCHHIZKH3DDWHR2T4/

"The study comes as figures show most of the under-65 population eligible for free second boosters – including around eight in 10 people in their 30s and 40s – haven’t bothered to get one."

As someone in their 30s I've recently had my third booster! A lot of people in this age group are very ambivalent about it though. Falls into the same category as the annual influenza vaccination, a minority of people will get it every year, most won't ever bother.

I happened to be at the surgery for a blood test yesterday and asked the nurse what the current recommendation was. She said one booster every six months if you’re considered at risk of complications (I am).

I’ve had six vaccinations now and will be having the seventh next week.

I realise I’m a sample of one but to the best of my knowledge I’ve never had Covid yet.

Canuckabroad

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#3290002 2-Oct-2024 12:37

It's difficult to say. You might be in the minority of those who haven't contracted Covid, but it's statistically probably more likely you had such a mild infection that you didn't notice it. We don't know what we don't know - the government can only calculate reported cases (which are probably 40-60% of actual) or do wastewater testing for current rough estimates - but nobody knows if you have had an asymptomatic infection or no infection at all. As I understand it, you're lucky, because there generally is a correlation between greater symptoms and the likelihood of longer-term impact.

Geektastic

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#3290012 2-Oct-2024 13:03

Also of course waste water testing only provides results for people connected to reticulated sewage systems.

Anyone with a septic tank system (the vast majority of rural properties) will not be included.

dantheperson

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#3290272 2-Oct-2024 21:23

alasta:

Sure, but what about the four coronaviruses that were endemic in humans long before covid-19 came along? OC43 in particular seems likely to have created a pandemic very similar to covid-19 when it emerged 130 years ago but you don't hear a lot of discussion about it having serious long term effects. This would suggest one of the following possibilities:

Different types of coronavirus behave very differently.
Coronaviruses become more benign over a period of many decades.
The existing coronaviruses have similar impacts to covid-19 that have never been clearly identified.

D) people have forgotten what life was like > 130 years ago and don't notice the side effects as they are just the 'old normal'

Ragnor

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#3290298 2-Oct-2024 22:33

Canuckabroad:

It's difficult to say. You might be in the minority of those who haven't contracted Covid, but it's statistically probably more likely you had such a mild infection that you didn't notice it. We don't know what we don't know - the government can only calculate reported cases (which are probably 40-60% of actual) or do wastewater testing for current rough estimates - but nobody knows if you have had an asymptomatic infection or no infection at all. As I understand it, you're lucky, because there generally is a correlation between greater symptoms and the likelihood of longer-term impact.

The should be detectable soon enough in an annual health check blood test/serology via your GP/health provider but we are not be good at these types of common sense preventive checks in NZ.

It's the same thing with improving air quality standards in schools and workplaces, all people can see is the cost on the balance sheet and not the benefit in less illness/time lost.

Ragnor

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#3290306 2-Oct-2024 23:20

dantheperson:

Or

D) people have forgotten what life was like > 130 years ago and don't notice the side effects as they are just the 'old normal'

cddt

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#3290347 3-Oct-2024 08:54

Ragnor:

The should be detectable soon enough in an annual health check blood test/serology via your GP/health provider but we are not be good at these types of common sense preventive checks in NZ.

GPs are so overworked that anyone walking in asking for a general health check up gets looked at like an alien who just landed.

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