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DR

  #2449524 29-Mar-2020 15:00
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robocat:

 

Firstly, if a surgeon type mask stops 50% of droplets and/or aerosols when you breath in, you have halved your risk.

 

 

If you inhale sufficient inoculum, it doesn't matter if your mask has reduced it from twice the inoculum received.


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  #2449533 29-Mar-2020 15:02
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This deserves to be spread around. I think it belongs here because it demonstrates the kind of kindness needed in this extraordinary situation. Not every company is profiteering and not every individual is ignoring the needs of others.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  #2449537 29-Mar-2020 15:10
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vexxxboy:  ... Every expert has said they are useless for stopping the virus and who cares if it stops 50% , it's the other 50% you should worry about.  

 

re the bit I applied bold to.  That is patently untrue.  Read my previous post.  Plus multiple other experts who have said the same.

 

Time for our 'experts' to listen to more experienced experts in other countries, and to be more open and acknowledge at least that advice is conflicting and that they want the public to not buy up masks so there are sufficient for medical and other front line staff.


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  #2449542 29-Mar-2020 15:14
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DS248:

 

tdgeek:  ... I dont think you can get non symptomatic positives? 

 

There is multiple evidence for asymptomatic positives; Iceland, South Korea, ...

 

eg. https://www.dw.com/en/up-to-30-of-coronavirus-cases-asymptomatic/a-52900988

 



This appears to be a case of a NZ born entertainer who has tested positive 3 times but not showing symptoms.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2020/03/coronavirus-nz-born-tv-host-richard-wilkins-tests-positive-for-covid-19-three-times.html 

There are also similar stories of other people who have also tested people who have not had symptoms including one of Wellingtons first cases who travelled to NZ from Oz before they had recieved their test results.


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  #2449573 29-Mar-2020 16:18
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dejadeadnz:

gchiu:

Don't equate the ignorance of some with the knowledge of the people who have controlled this disease successfully.


The number of potshots that you are taking at our officials who are undoubtedly in good faith trying to do their best is both unbecoming and irritating. And I noticed that when you were called out on an alleged falsehood about Ashley Bloomfield, you didn’t respond. For someone who earlier in the thread said that an NHS pathologist’s opinion on this virus is barely worth a damn unless he’s an immunologist, it’s hard to rationalise why “merely” being a doctor entitles you to constantly dig at our officials.


My wife is a doctor right on the frontlines and at high risk of exposure. She has her own unhappiness with the system too (as do practically all other medical professionals). But your level of carping is, to be frank, absolutely unique amongst her and her colleagues and she has been a silent follower of this thread.


If you are such an expert, be all means go and contact the media and powers that be to make your case. Carping here isn’t doing much for public health. 



I'd guess you get no response. I find it callow and cowardly to constantly cast potshots like this at people who have no right of reply and are doing their best. It confirms doctors are just like any other population with plenty of Karen's.

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  #2449576 29-Mar-2020 16:23
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dejadeadnz:

I have friends living in beach "hot spots" like Orewa and Kohimarama Bay and all are reporting people milling around or seemingly driving to the beaches. Bloody hell.


 


 



Now that it's been a few days it's time for some very public examples to be made. There has been plenty of education now it is time to show some consequences. $1000 spot fines and a couple of examples going to jail would help with compliance.

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Biddle Corp
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  #2449578 29-Mar-2020 16:30
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traderstu:

 

DarthKermit:

 

On the subject of masks, where can we buy them? Practically the only businesses still open are petrol stations, supermarkets and dairys. I got some sanding masks around here somewhere. Maybe I'll chuck one of those goddamned things on.

 

 

You can order them from Container Door. I've never bought any before, but the price seems reasonable when compared to some mentioned on this forum.

 

 

Except they're quoting April 20th Delivery. And that price is just insane profiteering.

 

Do not wear sanding masks. They'll offer absolutely zero benefit as they simply do not filter particles that small. Most cheap masks like that will also encourage you to touch your face as they get uncomfortable.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek

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  #2449587 29-Mar-2020 16:45
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Might be time to go and dig out an S10 I think!




Although, I imagine the majority of the general population would brick themselves if their doc or nurse came at them with one on!

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  #2449588 29-Mar-2020 16:45
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DS248:

 

tdgeek:  ... I dont think you can get non symptomatic positives? 

 

There is multiple evidence for asymptomatic positives; Iceland, South Korea, ...

 

eg. https://www.dw.com/en/up-to-30-of-coronavirus-cases-asymptomatic/a-52900988

 

 

 

 

You can see the Iceland stats online - https://www.covid.is/data

 

A private company (deCODE genetics) is also testing there to increase testing numbers and they've now completed 14,635 tests from a population of 364,260. This testing has shown around 50% of positive tests are non-symptomatic patients who are simply put into self isolation.

 

Here's were the whole herd immunity thing comes in to play - assuming it is the real deal... And the problem NZ may face if we've had such low community spread that we have in effect zero herd immunity. Once the UK starts rolling out it's serological test hopefully within a few few days (which they've ordered a few million of ) it's going to be really interesting to both see the results, and how it could change possibly change NZ's current approach.

 

 

 

 


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Master Geek

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  #2449590 29-Mar-2020 16:58
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DS248:

 

ben28:

 

Please take the time to read the official advice on masks.

These people know more than we do so trust them.  

 

...

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-novel-coronavirus-health-advice-general-public/covid-19-face-mask-and-hygiene-advice  

 

 

So which official advice do we trust? 

 

Our NZ 'experts' or those in China, South Korea, etc who have far more experience with use of masks by the public, and who have brought their COVID-19 cases largely under control.  

 

eg. links posted previously https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU

 

and https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/not-wearing-masks-protect-against-coronavirus-big-mistake-top-chinese-scientist-says

 



If you are physically in New Zealand you follow what the nz recommendations are
I don’t want to get into a S*** fight over what experts to follow but even the WHO advice is https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks similar

If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection.

 

Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing.

 

Masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-cleaning with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.

 

If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly.


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Master Geek


  #2449591 29-Mar-2020 17:00
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Mask facts or fiction...

 

What does Taiwan say? We should follow leaders like Taiwan: they were at huge risk, yet economy is running and schools open, their VP is an epidemiologist and he was minister of health during their SARS outbreak. Taiwan’s CDC says: “Prevention is the same as for other respiratory infections including washing hands frequently, wearing masks and cleaning up secretion from the mouth and nose appropriately. Other measures include avoiding crowded places such as markets or local hospitals, avoiding contact with animals and dead animals and avoiding eating raw meat or eggs. Additionally, you should wear masks and attend medical attention immediately when flu-like symptoms occur (such as body temperature ≧38℃, and coughing, etc)” - https://www.cdc.gov.tw/En/Category/QAPage/LnqBFJsulw6fW3nswc04Yw and “Our guidelines and policy for wearing masks have not changed, but people should consider wearing a mask in enclosed crowded spaces with poor air ventilation,” Minister of Health and Welfare Chen Shih-chung (陳時中), who heads the center, told a news conference in Taipei. People who must attend events in small crowded venues, where they would have frequent and close contact with other people, are advised to wear a mask, he said.”. Of course Taiwan also has many other layers of effective control against Covid: https://www.dw.com/en/taiwan-coronavirus/a-52724523 and a wired article too: https://www.wired.com/story/taiwan-is-beating-the-coronavirus-can-the-us-do-the-same/

 

Also i think it is significant that citizens commonly wear masks in the countries that are most successful at controlling the virus (and haven’t shut down their economies, Taiwan, Vietnam, SK, Singapore, Japan). It is a social stigma to not wear a mask in some places. However, although Japan looks like they have slowed the outbreak maybe they are just at the corner of the hockey stick. And in HK: “Dr. Pak-Leung Ho, head of Centre for infection at @hkumed ... highlighted universal mask-wearing as one of the reasons widespread outbreak didn't occur.” https://twitter.com/lwcalex/status/1235091542219448321

 

OurNZ guidelines https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-novel-coronavirus-health-advice-general-public/covid-19-face-mask-and-hygiene-advice say “For most people in the community, PPE such as face masks are not recommended. However, for people with symptoms of an acute respiratory infection, the World Health Organization recommends that there may be benefit in wearing a face mask to reduce the spread of infection to other people.” and “Hand hygiene and cough / sneeze etiquette (maintain distance, cover coughs and sneezes with disposable tissues and wash hands) will have a bigger impact.”. So coughs transmit the disease and masks “may” be useful if you have the infection. I believe that the real issue is that we don’t have enough of them, so therefore they can’t be recommended.

 

Yes, I know the science is lacking on the effectiveness of masks, and that they may have paradoxical outcomes. But there is a lot of FUD out there about them. Anyone who says we should just blindly follow expert advice, should look at how that is working out for the US.

 

There is a huge back-pressure against wearing masks in western countries, which leads to an environment of glib advice against them. I know this isn’t a very scientific issue, but I think it matters. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html

 

Finally, here is a sciency article “Would everyone wearing face masks help us slow the pandemic?”: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/would-everyone-wearing-face-masks-help-us-slow-pandemic

 

I will likely not post anything more on masks - I feel like the topic leads to bizarre irrational comments.

 

Meta: I treat this forum as a place for NZ geeks in armchairs to calmly discuss Covid19. If we are supposed to follow a party whip, or if this is only for epidemiologists, then I can tap out. I sincerely try to look for truth, and I try to be polite to those who I suspect are misguided or lacking facts. I am spending significant time and effort to try and help my fellow geeks in these changing times. I want to be challenged with thoughtful responses that I can learn from. Ko te hauora pai ake i te taonga.


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  #2449594 29-Mar-2020 17:01
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We were out today to get some groceries and I needed some medication only available from a Chemist. We decided to drive to a Countdown that was a little further away than the closest one to our home as it has a Chemist in store a sensible thought we assumed as it meant only one stop and less risk and exposure. However we were stopped by a Police patrol and asked what our purpose was for being on the road. We told the officer that we needed some groceries and some Pharmacy only medication he told us we needed to go to the closest store to our home. When we tried to explain that we were going to a store that is a grocery store and chemist he was not interested and kept interrupting us. He told us to turn around and go to a grocery store closer.  He was not interested and told us not to argue and he became quite aggressive. 

 

I realise they are under pressure and we were polite the entire time we talked to him. He could see the mobility card  on our screen and it was clear that we were being truthful. I don't believe we were being unreasonable or doing anything wrong. We turned around and went home as we did not want to get arrested. It was very upsetting and stressful. We will have to go out again tomorrow and go to a grocery and a Chemist to get they medication.

 

Be careful out there as this nation has very much changed.





Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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DR

  #2449595 29-Mar-2020 17:02
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sbiddle:

 

Do not wear sanding masks. They'll offer absolutely zero benefit as they simply do not filter particles that small. Most cheap masks like that will also encourage you to touch your face as they get uncomfortable.

 

 

You shouldn't advise on something you know nothing about. 

 

You need to check the sanding mask to see what the specifications are.

 

See https://www.bunnings.co.nz/respirator-sanding-stripping-2-valved_p0211871

 

This is labelled P2 which is short for FFP2, and it's the equivalent of a N95 mask.  It's used for protection against the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

 

I see that their Palmerston North shop has stock but now it's too late to buy from them unless you're trade.

 

Check to see what sanding masks you have at home.  I have some of the ones labelled P1 which is insufficient.


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  #2449597 29-Mar-2020 17:08
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Tinkerisk:

 

cshwone:

 

And I believe those days could make all the difference where although in the short term we will rapidly climb we should plateau a lot earlier.

 

 

I hope you are right.

 

 

I deeply regret that what I told you has come true. I do not have the solution for you, but the leading experiences of the past 14 days in the second largest city in Germany, the processes of which I have tried to report to you carefully. Nobody likes the bearer of bad news, especially if he's a stranger. This pandemic makes us all the same and that's my only argument.





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  #2449598 29-Mar-2020 17:08
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Hibino:

 

Like I said before, masks will only become necessary when there are enough supply, otherwise media will keep saying it is not required by normal people.

 

 

Can someone clarify for me? I thought masks were about preventing *you* from infecting other people, that they are a one-way thing. So wearing a mask if you aren't infected won't do anything: it won't prevent you from getting infected, and (since you're not infected) it won't stop anyone else from getting infected.

 

 


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