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  #2453117 2-Apr-2020 15:23
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dogstar001:


I don't know. I guess I feel that if this thing can be eliminated in 4-6 weeks then kudos to our PM. If not, then I think that there is a legitimate moral dilemma. To what extent should people have their lives restricted so that elderly people who have already led good long lives, can live a bit longer. Should schools, pre schools & universities be open? What about cafes & restaurants? What about bars and nightclubs? Weekend sports? libraries & swimming pools?

 

Jesus ***** Christ, are you really this nasty or just lack the capacity to think? The restrictions are relatively minor -- people who have lost jobs/income are getting unprecedented support  -- and this is occurring against a background where the relatively low sacrifices are protecting people of all ages, including the young and vulnerable with existing conditions - from serious illnesses and death. The long term consequences (beyond health issues) of letting COVID-19 run wild could also be beyond measure. On any mainstream ethical framework, especially bearing in mind the broad-based community support for such measures, they are justified.

 

Stop arguing.

 

 


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  #2453118 2-Apr-2020 15:26
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dogstar001:  Apologies, I don't think my comment was ageist. At least I didn't intend it to be. ...

 

 

@dogstar001

 

"Should young people have to put their lives on hold so some 84 year old can live to be 86." is a perfect text-book example of ageism.

 

As you approach the age of 84, you will understand this.   😕





Sideface


 
 
 
 


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  #2453119 2-Apr-2020 15:26
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And to point out a few obvious things: a lot of schools and universities are actually teaching and running. Boo-bloody-hoo if people can't go to restaurants or cafes for a while.

 

 

 

 


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  #2453120 2-Apr-2020 15:30
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cshwone:

dogstar001:

Sorry you are wrong. If you look at the numbers, it mostly kills the elderly & those with serious pre-existing conditions. Generally people that have led good, long lives but are on their final few years regardless of COVID. It takes the odd healthy under 50 YO. But very rarely. Look at diamond princess. 712 infected accross all ages 11 deaths, all over 70. Young people may be hospitalized for a sveral days but then they are back on their feet.

I don't know. I guess I feel that if this thing can be eliminated in 4-6 weeks then kudos to our PM. If not, then I think that there is a legitimate moral dilemma. To what extent should people have their lives restricted so that elderly people who have already led good long lives, can live a bit longer. Should schools, pre schools & universities be open? What about cafes & restaurants? What about bars and nightclubs? Weekend sports? libraries & swimming pools?


I am 64 and in reasonable health. So are you saying I should accept a vastly increased likelihood of an earlier death so you can go out and have a good time?



Trust me , im not having a good time. I'm 35, large mortgage, 3 kids under 5. Has been told he will probably be made redundant post lockdown. I work in a niche industry. Not many jobs.

Maybe your right, maybe we should put our whole country into hibernation till a vaccine. I just won't my mortgage frozen & food parcels till then. Gotta feed the kids.




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  #2453121 2-Apr-2020 15:31
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Q&A with virologist https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120742806/live-coronavirus-qa-with-virologist-lance-jennings

 

"What is your stance with regard to the public wearing masks

 

These are most effective in providing the wearer protection from COVID-19 infection in the healthcare setting where health care works have been trained on how to don and especially doff them. Because of the massive requirement for these in healthcare settings, our MOH and indeed the CDC & WHO have not recommended them for general community use. This thinking in recent articles is starting to change. We see nearly everyone wearing them in China, and they have managed a degree of virus control or have "flattened the epidemic curve", so I suspect that there will be increasing discussion and along with this wider use of them in the community, especially if the NZ manufactured masks become widely available."





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #2453122 2-Apr-2020 15:33
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dogstar001:

 

Apologies, I don't think my comment was ageist. At least I didn't intend it to be.I though I made a valid point. Some countries Sweden & USA have followed this line of reasoning & are staying open. As I just said if this thing can't be stamped out in 4-6 weeks. Where does that leave us?

 

Because the USA is doing a fantastic job of keeping people healthy and alive ATM... *looks for a key back from the parallel universe*

 

The government has indicated that, for now, if the 4 week restriction doesn't work as well as expected, we will keep going. And frankly we can afford to -- government debt to GDP is still very low by world standards. The banks have plenty of room to take haircuts (and frankly should be made to). We should not be haphazardly trading money for lives like we are desperate to enact some Nozickian or Randian hyper-individualistic wet dream.


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  #2453124 2-Apr-2020 15:34
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I'm gonna stop posting here, I'm not liked. apologies if I offended anyone. I genuinely didn't intend to. I just feel as a society we have some very tough decisions moving forward. good look

 
 
 
 


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  #2453125 2-Apr-2020 15:34
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dejadeadnz:

And, for many deaf people who use NZSL as their first or preferred language, NZSL is the only way to access information.

 

 

For people who aren't familiar with the difference between the overall BANZSL (British/Aus/NZ Sign Language) and NZSL, there are slight differences to express concepts like "fush and chups" where the motion of the palm is a bit rounder than for "fish and chips", and "yeah nah" and "chur bro" which is difficult to express in, say, BSL.

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  #2453126 2-Apr-2020 15:35
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cshwone:

 

dogstar001:

Sorry you are wrong. If you look at the numbers, it mostly kills the elderly & those with serious pre-existing conditions. Generally people that have led good, long lives but are on their final few years regardless of COVID. It takes the odd healthy under 50 YO. But very rarely. Look at diamond princess. 712 infected accross all ages 11 deaths, all over 70. Young people may be hospitalized for a sveral days but then they are back on their feet.

I don't know. I guess I feel that if this thing can be eliminated in 4-6 weeks then kudos to our PM. If not, then I think that there is a legitimate moral dilemma. To what extent should people have their lives restricted so that elderly people who have already led good long lives, can live a bit longer. Should schools, pre schools & universities be open? What about cafes & restaurants? What about bars and nightclubs? Weekend sports? libraries & swimming pools?

 

I am 64 and in reasonable health. So are you saying I should accept a vastly increased likelihood of an earlier death so you can go out and have a good time?

 

 

And just to put some numbers on it. the worldometer death rate from coronavirus for my age group is 3.6%. The NZ MoH stats for deaths in my age group from any causes is .658%.

 

So if we follow dogstars proposal  I now have a 4.258% chance of dying this year or roughly 1 in 25 compared to a 1 in 151 chance of death this in a normal year.

 

 


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  #2453127 2-Apr-2020 15:36
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kingdragonfly:

It's been speculated the "machine" are ozone generators. A company US called "Sharper Image" made a bunch of dubious claims regarding "Ion breeze" / "negative ion generators".

First they lost a large class action lawsuit, then they lost a libel suit against "Consumer Affairs", and declared bankruptcy.

Unfortunately the claims that ozone generators improve indoor air quality still hang around, including New Zealand companies that are happy to sell you one.

I've informed the Commerce Commision about a company in New Zealand called "NaturalOzone" / "Ozone Solutions NZ " / Kim Saxton:

To prevent the further spreading of the new coronavirus it is prudent to disinfect public spaces whether or not they are showing signs of having been infected or not. More than 17 scientific studies show ozone gas has been proven to destroy the SARS coronavirus (Ed: no source given of course)and since the structure of the new 2019-nCoV coronavirus is almost identical to that of the SARS coronavirus, it can be inferred that its likely it will also work on the new coronavirus with the caveat that there are no studies to date except one currently ongoing in China at the Institute of Virology In Hubei.

I suspect at best, ozone would cause virus to stick to surfaces, at worst it would irritate the lungs and potentially make the virus job easier.

See 4 Reasons You Should NEVER Use An Ozone Generator to Clean Your Indoor Air

 

On that reasoning that Ozone generators work, I am about to dash out and buy the largest wattage Electric bug zapper. ⚡️+🦠=💀

 

 





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  #2453129 2-Apr-2020 15:42
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Paul1977:

 

They didn't include the 15% mortality from the sever cases in the graph like they did for critical cases.

 

Also, are those 15% of severe case who died not put into ICU or ventilated?

 

 

 

 

 

I think anyone who died, was likely to have moved from a severe case, to a critical case. Anyone who gets it may start of mild and then go to severe, and then critical, but at the end they would only be listed in a single category .  I am guessing that some of those who were severe and then died or recovered, there may not have been ICU resources for them due to the health system being overloaded. I am not sure how accurate it is, but it seems to correspond with the percentages I have seen listed, and I haven't seen a graph like this before for this. I just found it a useful graph to understand how the virus affects different people. I suspect it will change by the end of this as we learn more on how the virus works.


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  #2453130 2-Apr-2020 15:42
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dogstar001: I'm gonna stop posting here, I'm not liked. apologies if I offended anyone. I genuinely didn't intend to. I just feel as a society we have some very tough decisions moving forward. good look

 

It's not about liking or not liking anyone. The issue is with you trying to imply that there's a remotely worthwhile utility calculus to be balanced between people being able to go to coffee shops blah blah versus a bunch of older people potentially getting very sick and dying. Now if you are down to a final vial of medicine and it's between, say a person likely with another 50 years of happy, healthy and productive life versus, say, a person with 5 more, then the equation changes. But that's not what we are talking about here.


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  #2453132 2-Apr-2020 15:46
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neb:
freitasm:

 

People are stupid.

 

"Think about how stupid the average person is, and then consider that 50% of the population are even stupider than that" :-).

 

Stupid is as stupid does





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  #2453134 2-Apr-2020 15:48
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I was’t going to post here again but I feel I must. @dogstar001 yes NZ is facing hard times as we have many times in the past. I will share something personal. I worked very hard, 2 jobs to get our first home however mortgage interest rates hit over 20% and I could not keep those payments up. I fell ill and disabled and lost my job. I also lost the house and it took another 10 years plus to finally get another home. I have only ever had 3 homes and at size no bigger than necessary. My current home is not large and will be my final home as it has been modified for my disabilities.

 

 

 

I did not lose my humanity because of that I do not want New Zealand to lose its humanity over this very trying time. Creating scapegoats and sacrificing those scapegoats is not the future any of us should want in our society. What you are suggesting is utterly disgraceful. I understand that you are hurting but your problems won’t be solved by your solution it will be made harder.





Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2453136 2-Apr-2020 15:49
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sir1963:

They will stop when Trump sees this will impact his election prospects.

 

 

The thing is, I don't know if it will. The MAGA-hatters will keep voting for him and those who already don't like him will keep voting against him. I'm not sure if there'll be much change in the status quo.

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