2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2474063 30-Apr-2020 13:37

Technofreak:

tdgeek:

The point of my post was that the criticism of NZ being woeful that was made, is not relevant. Its only relevant of NZ was poor while most of the globe was good. The fact is, the world underestimated this virus. Therefore the accurate question is why

Re NZ, did we assess the virus and conclude that obviously it will infect well over 3 million by today? I doubt it. As Covid-19 is SARS2 (I think the official name in nCov-SARS2) I imagine many would be looking at SARS as a guide. Here for 8 months, big in the news. Did not do much at all. That probably didnt help

We had 60 flights day into AKL, thats just AKL. 60 x 200 where do we put 12000 people daily?

There was never a need to accommodate 12,000 per day. That 12,000 you quote is everyone. Closing the borders to all but New Zealander doesn't require accommodating 12,000 per day.

Closing the border means quarantine. I.e. enforced self isolation not voluntary. Otherwise its not closed. In any case its hindsught. SARS was a big deal that did nothing, and every country was "slow" Had SARS been Covid-19 1.0 it would have been different but it wasnt. To see SARS 2.0 and treet it as though it will be massively massively worse is not reasonably foreseeable.

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MikeB4

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#2474065 30-Apr-2020 13:40

To those still on the close the borders stuff. The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 section 18. In particular section 18(2).

Freedom of movement

(1)Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand.

(2)Every New Zealand citizen has the right to enter New Zealand.

(3)Everyone has the right to leave New Zealand.

(4)No one who is not a New Zealand citizen and who is lawfully in New Zealand shall be required to leave New Zealand except under a decision taken on grounds prescribed by law.

tdgeek

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#2474067 30-Apr-2020 13:42

GV27:

tdgeek:

We had 60 flights day into AKL, thats just AKL. 60 x 200 where do we put 12000 people daily?

We close airspace when there's terrorist attacks at the drop of a hat.

We should be able to manage an entirely predictable part of a pandemic response as per our pandemic response plan when a pandemic hits.

When did it hit? When did we foresee there will be well over 3 million affected by April 30? Sorry but all I see is hindsight. What if we shut all of that down in Feb. Why not Jan it was well known. Why not 31 Dec that's the day it was named? Then it turns out like SARS 1.0, and millions mucked around over nothing. Thats why

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Technofreak

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#2474068 30-Apr-2020 13:45

frankv:

Technofreak:

Why did we allow tourists to keep coming into the country for as long as we did? When the flood waters are threatening your house you don't build a half hearted stop bank.

To extend the floodwaters analogy, it was because we have a waterwheel. You don't turn off what keeps you fed until you have to.

But, you know what, our house wasn't flooded. Our half hearted stop bank has held the flood back (so far). A bit of water in the garage, with some still to be mopped up. But little harm done.

Sooner or later we were going to have to turn off that waterwheel as you call it, and we eventually did. We now have a bigger and more costly mess to clean up.

There is absolutely no doubt turning off the waterwheel was going to cost us, but turning it off earlier rather than later was always going to cost less.

I can see how a wait and see approach has it's benefits (thinking perhaps it won't get too bad), but in the opinion of people like Mr Gorman we spent too long waiting based on overseas evidence.

However once the authorities acted we have done comparatively well and will come out of this in a better situation than many parts of the world. Thankfully we had a cohesive effort between the elected politicians and the health authorities.

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dejadeadnz

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#2474070 30-Apr-2020 13:46

MikeB4:

To those still on the close the borders stuff. The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 section 18. In particular section 18(2).

Freedom of movement

(1)Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand.

(2)Every New Zealand citizen has the right to enter New Zealand.

(3)Everyone has the right to leave New Zealand.

(4)No one who is not a New Zealand citizen and who is lawfully in New Zealand shall be required to leave New Zealand except under a decision taken on grounds prescribed by law.

People, stop quoting the NZBORA if you don't understand it. It is not a supreme legislation and parliament can pass law that is inconsistent with the rights protected within the NZBORA (s 4). The general legal framework is that any limitations upon the rights protected under NZBORA have to be reasonable and proportionate to the legitimate aims to be achieved by the overriding legislation (s 5).

You can debate whether the borders should have been closed to Kiwis as the MoH apparently suggested according to Winston Peters. But do it on an informed basis about the relevant legal and constitutional framework.

Oblivian

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#2474071 30-Apr-2020 13:46

We wen't over this tripe a month ago. These same heated opinions are what exploded a nice thread monitoring the other side of the worlds stats and progression to what it is now.

We get it. Everyone's an expert and would do it better/different. But everyones not in the office making the decisions. So we deal with the now.

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#2474073 30-Apr-2020 13:49

@Technofreak I was all for quarantine all arrivals end of february/early march until I start counting. Even if we ban all people in short term/work visas you'll have thouthands of people arriving initially per day and for best results you'll need to keep them strictly separated from any other group of people for at least 14 days.

Is that easily done with the standard anything but camping? Government struggled to accommodate and service 3000 people as of today's quarantine. People that arrived in NZ are not military, they have needs, special facilities, etc.

So was that a possibility? Yes.
Was it feasible to do? Sounds like nope.

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#2474074 30-Apr-2020 13:49

dejadeadnz:

People, stop quoting the NZBORA if you don't understand it. It is not a supreme legislation and parliament can pass law that is inconsistent with the rights protected within the NZBORA (s 4). The general legal framework is that any limitations upon the rights protected under NZBORA have to be reasonable and proportionate to the legitimate aims to be achieved by the overriding legislation (s 5).

I was about to say that worked well for the 3? thrown out cases using it as their basis in court..

(never mind health act 1956 vs BOR 1990)

Handle9

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#2474076 30-Apr-2020 13:50

MikeB4:

To those still on the close the borders stuff. The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 section 18. In particular section 18(2).

Freedom of movement

(1)Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand.

(2)Every New Zealand citizen has the right to enter New Zealand.

(3)Everyone has the right to leave New Zealand.

(4)No one who is not a New Zealand citizen and who is lawfully in New Zealand shall be required to leave New Zealand except under a decision taken on grounds prescribed by law.

I'm not sure how that is relevant? It's just an act of parliament which can be changed or over ridden by other legislation.

There are any number of rights that have been over ridden during this crisis.

Closing the borders to NZ citizens has other implications and very real problems but that legislation isn't something that would have stopped it.

dejadeadnz

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#2474078 30-Apr-2020 13:53

I was about to say that worked well for the 3? thrown out cases using it as their basis in court..

(never mind health act 1956 vs BOR 1990)

The presumption is that latter legislation overrides earlier legislation. The enabling orders and legislative provisions supporting the lockdown came after 1990. The original passage date of the overall legislation is also not the determining factor.

Technofreak

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#2474080 30-Apr-2020 13:55

tdgeek:

Closing the border means quarantine. I.e. enforced self isolation not voluntary. Otherwise its not closed. In any case its hindsught. SARS was a big deal that did nothing, and every country was "slow" Had SARS been Covid-19 1.0 it would have been different but it wasnt. To see SARS 2.0 and treet it as though it will be massively massively worse is not reasonably foreseeable.

Closing the border to me means no movement in or out, it doesn't necessarily mean quarantine.

Quarantine means yes you can come in, but before you can go freely about your business you must enter holding paddock first to make sure you are infection free.

To make my point, our borders are not closed to animals however we have animals, like pet dogs, livestock etc go into quarantine before their owner can take them home.

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MikeB4

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#2474084 30-Apr-2020 14:00

Yes I am aware that the Government and the MOH issued orders under the Health Acts but and I concede without being condescending that I may well have missed something in the deluge but do not believe the Governments/MOH orders overrode the provisions that give NZ Citizens the right of entry in New Zealand. And with that I bow out of the toxic mess these discussion invariable become due to the attitudes perpetually displayed by a few who believe they should be the only oracles. Adieu

GV27

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#2474091 30-Apr-2020 14:08

We banned cruise ships from docking, was that somehow a ban of Kiwi's fundamental rights of return? No, of course it wasn't.

Even when we finally did start imposing restrictions, we pushed them back by an hour to let more people in without having to quarantine themselves for two weeks.

It seems like people only want to hear expert opinion that reaffirms their own opinions or allegiances.

tdgeek

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#2474092 30-Apr-2020 14:09

Technofreak:

To make my point, our borders are not closed to animals however we have animals, like pet dogs, livestock etc go into quarantine before their owner can take them home.

Where do the 60 flights a day go? All neee to be quarantined as they are now

Technofreak

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#2474098 30-Apr-2020 14:23

kobiak:

@Technofreak I was all for quarantine all arrivals end of february/early march until I start counting. Even if we ban all people in short term/work visas you'll have thouthands of people arriving initially per day and for best results you'll need to keep them strictly separated from any other group of people for at least 14 days.

Is that easily done with the standard anything but camping? Government struggled to accommodate and service 3000 people as of today's quarantine. People that arrived in NZ are not military, they have needs, special facilities, etc.

So was that a possibility? Yes.
Was it feasible to do? Sounds like nope.

Yes initially there would have been a large number of New Zealanders returning. That could have been managed by having something like an amnesty where those returning before certain date would only have to self isolate but after that date the only option was quarantine. In the meantime the border is closed to all but New Zealanders and New Zealand residents with the commitment to revise who else can arrive and under what requirements they have to meet once we see how the events unfold.

Your point about the government struggling to accommodate and service 3000 people kind of illustrates my point about us having to be equipped to look after our population in the event of a natural disaster. It looks to me that we aren't even ready for something like that where it is conceivable we could need to temporarily house many thousands of people.

It doesn't matter whether those that are returning are military or not. If a tent village run by the army is what it takes to protect the rest of the population then that's what it is. Those that have special needs can be accommodated as required.

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