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  #2432991 5-Mar-2020 10:58
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere with regards using masks: how often should they be replaced? If I'm lucky enough to own a few, should I only wear them for 24 hours and then discard them? Can I keep wearing one for a week?


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  #2432992 5-Mar-2020 10:59
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Be aware that alcohol sanitiser gels etc work well on "clean" hands - but not as well as soap and water for killing the virus on soiled / sticky hands.
A proviso on that - you'd normally not use a towel to dry your hands with alcohol sanitiser, you normally do after washing hands with soap and water - but if you're using a hand towel already used by dozens of other people then...

 

Those hot air hand dryers might be a trap.  I haven't read anything WRT Covid-19, but there was quite a bit of concern a few years ago about particularly the "air blade" hand dryers being a risk for blowing droplets containing pathogens from hands into the air.  


 
 
 
 


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  #2432996 5-Mar-2020 11:03
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Fred99:

 

tdgeek:

 

...handwashing...

 

I feel we need an ongoing TV campaign to reinforce this, as it doesn't require time, or money, to make a difference

 

Absolutely true.  Start doing this regularly and habitually right now - do not wait until we have confirmed outbreaks in NZ.

 

ABSOLUTELY FULLY AGREE

 

The government needs to carry out an ALL channels; Free To Air, Sky & Fox Hand Washing Advice advert. Also, at least Air NZ & QANTAS, need to have a similar Hand Washing Advice adverts several times on board plus all those advert screens at airports, bus terminals and train terminals plus all those electronic road advisory signs need to carry similar messages.

 

Get the message out there.

 

WASH YOUR HANDS

 

 

 





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  #2432997 5-Mar-2020 11:06
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Fred99:

 

Be aware that alcohol sanitiser gels etc work well on "clean" hands - but not as well as soap and water for killing the virus on soiled / sticky hands.
A proviso on that - you'd normally not use a towel to dry your hands with alcohol sanitiser, you normally do after washing hands with soap and water - but if you're using a hand towel already used by dozens of other people then...

 

Those hot air hand dryers might be a trap.  I haven't read anything WRT Covid-19, but there was quite a bit of concern a few years ago about particularly the "air blade" hand dryers being a risk for blowing droplets containing pathogens from hands into the air.  

 

 

I use it as an emergency eg if a toilet does not have paper towels so I can cover my hands on exiting. I use it when shopping especially after holding a shopping trolly(something I have stopped using) I take and use our bags for that. I agree it is only a temporary stop gap until one can thoroughly wash ones hands.

 

We have put away our hand towels in the guest toilet and bathroom and replaced with paper towels I and I have never used towels or air blowers in public toilets. 





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2433007 5-Mar-2020 11:19
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Fred99:

 

I've got an amateur hypothesis about Covid-19:

 

In the first world - the almost complete lack of cases in infants and children and zero fatalities could be due to cross-immunity from "childhood" infections. The low infection and CFR for young people could be due to lasting immunity, or due to reinfection of parents of children with those childhood bugs.

 

In the third-world with poorer sanitation, there may be a higher level of immunity in the population due to constant circulation of mild illnesses which are the same of similar viruses as cause "childhood" infections in the first world.

 

Please pick holes in my amateur hypothesis with amateur (or pro) peer review.

 



Interesting theory.
It could also be the opposite. Infants and children get infected as much as older adults, but because they've had much less exposure to coronavirus in general they show very little immune reaction - ie with this pathogen the immune reaction to previous coronavirus infections is cumulative.

Marc Lipsitch an epidemiologist and head of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health’s Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics, thinks kids may get infected but have such a mild immune reaction it's not noticed.

He thinks possibly a very high viral load in younger people may cause the same over-reaction, such as the death of young physicians.

There are a few virologists also suggesting it's an immune over-reaction in older people who've been exposed to multiple previous coronavirus infections.

Australian Professor Robert Booy from the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance suggested  that older people “are reacting quite violently because perhaps they have seen a previous coronavirus infection and that's set up the immune system to react inappropriately and excessively,"

Stanley Perlman, a virologist and pediatric infectious disease specialist at the University of Iowa mentions much the same immune response over-reaction in this article in “The Scientist”



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Uber Geek


  #2433016 5-Mar-2020 11:31
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Sidestep:

 

Fred99:

 

I've got an amateur hypothesis about Covid-19:

 

In the first world - the almost complete lack of cases in infants and children and zero fatalities could be due to cross-immunity from "childhood" infections. The low infection and CFR for young people could be due to lasting immunity, or due to reinfection of parents of children with those childhood bugs.

 

In the third-world with poorer sanitation, there may be a higher level of immunity in the population due to constant circulation of mild illnesses which are the same of similar viruses as cause "childhood" infections in the first world.

 

Please pick holes in my amateur hypothesis with amateur (or pro) peer review.

 



Interesting theory.
It could also be the opposite. Infants and children get infected as much as older adults, but because they've had much less exposure to coronavirus in general they show very little immune reaction - ie with this pathogen the immune reaction to previous coronavirus infections is cumulative.

Marc Lipsitch an epidemiologist and head of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health’s Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics, thinks kids may get infected but have such a mild immune reaction it's not noticed.

He thinks possibly a very high viral load in younger people may cause the same over-reaction, such as the death of young physicians.

There are a few virologists also suggesting it's an immune over-reaction in older people who've been exposed to multiple previous coronavirus infections.

Australian Professor Robert Booy from the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance suggested  that older people “are reacting quite violently because perhaps they have seen a previous coronavirus infection and that's set up the immune system to react inappropriately and excessively,"

Stanley Perlman, a virologist and pediatric infectious disease specialist at the University of Iowa mentions much the same immune response over-reaction in this article in “The Scientist”


 

 

Could be, but the expectation for "cytokine storm" is that it would hit young fit people worse, as hypothesised to explain the very high case fatality rate in 20-40YO in "spanish flu".  So maybe that's completely wrong.  The age distribution for fatalities from SARS-1 was very similar to Covid-19 (SARS 2).

 

You'd expect doctors (and other medical workers) to pick up plenty of mild contagious disease - so yeah - that also ties in (as well as just the suggestion that they're exposed to a higher viral load of SARS CoV-2 if they're treating those cases). OTOH you'd expect children and young persons living with infected parents etc and taking no protective measures - would also get belted with a very high viral load.

 

Edit - the "unusual" geographical spread might not support that cytokine storm hypothesis - as those living in poor sanitary conditions probably also get constant/repeated infection with mild infectious diseases, presumably including coronaviruses.  


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  #2433066 5-Mar-2020 11:43
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Is immuno suppresant treatment part of our they might care for older patients?


 
 
 
 


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  #2433067 5-Mar-2020 11:48
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tdgeek:

 

Is immuno suppresant treatment part of our they might care for older patients?

 

 

Well that's another odd thing- because initially in China they were routinely giving patients steroids, but WHO have recommended they are not used as the evidence was showing that they worsened the prognosis.  Of course that may have been because even if they did reduce cytokine storm, they probably increased secondary bacterial/fungal co-morbidity.


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  #2433068 5-Mar-2020 11:50
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tdgeek:

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/03/coronavirus-the-airports-key-to-spreading-covid-19.html

 

Its not really about airports, its about handwashing. The more I read the more its about handwashing. Virus from eyes to hands as you rub your eyes, touch someone or something, its on soemone elses hands, who rubs their eyes or mouth or nose. Its theoretically very easy to vastly limit community spread, by doing what we should be doing anyway

 

I feel we need an ongoing TV campaign to reinforce this, as it doesnt require time, or money, to make a difference

 

 

I did hear a radio commercial (message from MoH) about the season being upon us and ensure you cough into a tissue or elbow and wash hands for 20sec when handling etc..

 

There was a campaign planned, I guess it's just not at TV levels yet


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  #2433069 5-Mar-2020 11:53
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Possibly childrens' lungs are different from adults, and therefore less susceptible to COVID-19 attack? From Wikipedia

 

 

At birth the lungs are very undeveloped with only around one sixth of the alveoli of the adult lung present.[45] The alveoli continue to form into early adulthood, and their ability to form when necessary is seen in the regeneration of the lung.[58][59] Alveolar septa have a double capillary network instead of the single network of the developed lung. Only after the maturation of the capillary network can the lung enter a normal phase of growth. Following the early growth in numbers of alveoli there is another stage of the alveoli being enlarged.[60]

 

 

 


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Uber Geek


  #2433070 5-Mar-2020 11:57
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frankv:

 

Possibly childrens' lungs are different from adults, and therefore less susceptible to COVID-19 attack? From Wikipedia

 

 

At birth the lungs are very undeveloped with only around one sixth of the alveoli of the adult lung present.[45] The alveoli continue to form into early adulthood, and their ability to form when necessary is seen in the regeneration of the lung.[58][59] Alveolar septa have a double capillary network instead of the single network of the developed lung. Only after the maturation of the capillary network can the lung enter a normal phase of growth. Following the early growth in numbers of alveoli there is another stage of the alveoli being enlarged.[60]

 

 

 

 

 

Yes.  But CFR is only a very low 0.2% in young adults (ie 20-40YO)


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  #2433071 5-Mar-2020 11:59
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Fred99:

 

Yes.  But CFR is only a very low 0.2% in young adults (ie 20-40YO)

 

 

OT aside: I'm sure that 40yos are pleased to be identified as "young adults" ;)

 

 


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  #2433072 5-Mar-2020 12:03
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tdgeek:

 

Is immuno suppresant treatment part of our they might care for older patients?

 

 

One of the medications I am on suppresses my immune system this is why I have to be very careful. My specialists have given me instructions including putting a notice on our front door essentially saying 'if you are sick or been near a sick person please bugger off ' but I have worded it more politely.

 

My GP is overing me support by way of phone consultations, sending scripts directly to my Pharmacy who have offered to drop them off to me. I have been advised to take good quality vitamin C which costs $55 per bottle and B, D group vitamins to support my immune system. So based on that I would have to conclude that immune suppression would be a very bad thing to do.





Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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Uber Geek


  #2433074 5-Mar-2020 12:05
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MurrayM:

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere with regards using masks: how often should they be replaced? If I'm lucky enough to own a few, should I only wear them for 24 hours and then discard them? Can I keep wearing one for a week?

 

 

Outlined in the WHO link I provided yesterday

 

'as soon as it gets damp', and 'do not reuse disposables'

 

Basically, noone should be wearing them fulltime. It's a safehaven for collection.


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  #2433077 5-Mar-2020 12:10
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MikeB4:

 

tdgeek:

 

Is immuno suppresant treatment part of our they might care for older patients?

 

 

One of the medications I am on suppresses my immune system this is why I have to be very careful. My specialists have given me instructions including putting a notice on our front door essentially saying 'if you are sick or been near a sick person please bugger off ' but I have worded it more politely.

 

My GP is overing me support by way of phone consultations, sending scripts directly to my Pharmacy who have offered to drop them off to me. I have been advised to take good quality vitamin C which costs $55 per bottle and B, D group vitamins to support my immune system. So based on that I would have to conclude that immune suppression would be a very bad thing to do.

 

 

Understood. My query was that over reacting immunity, i.e. cytokine storm, seems to be what kills many people, it overwhelms the lungs. Hence why an immuno suppresant might have been a tool to manage that scenario. It might well be that the virus is very mild, maybe very very mild, but past exposures througthout life may have brought about a situation where the immune system runs amok. Older people have more historical disease exposure. The virus isn't doing a great deal but our bodies are in fact inadvertentky killing us.


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