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ockel
1779 posts

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  #2540509 13-Aug-2020 20:04
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antonknee:

 

In fairness it's very hard to force someone to undergo a medical procedure (and doing so potentially brings a whole host of other issues), as much as it may have seemed to make sense in the circumstances. 

 

It has also been made clear that other health checks do take place daily on those workers in the MIQ facilities, and that Covid swabs are a second line of defense.

 

 

If you dont want to undergo a swab then ask to be relocated to a different site, away from the area of risk (no different than hospitals during March/April, or those essential workers (eg supermarkets) who felt the personal risk during L4 and L3 was too high.

 

Sports players in Australia, Europe and the US have accepted regular testing as part of training and playing.  Wouldnt you want to know that you're in a safe environment as evidenced by regular testing?

 

What other checks take place?  A series of questions that may or may not be appropriate?  I believe that the absconders from the Novotel Ellerslie that couldnt find their way to Wellington were asked "Are you or have you been feeling unwell?".  If thats the extent of checks then that'd be extraordinary but, once again, unsurprising.


Fred99
10947 posts

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  #2540514 13-Aug-2020 20:11
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heavenlywild:
ockel:

 

The co-Prime Minister is claiming its a breach of quarantine that has led to the outbreak.

 

 

 

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/winston-peters-claims-current-auckland-covid-19-cluster-linked-quarantine-breach

 



I'm not surprised but I'm surprised the PM and AB aren't aware. Either way it's gonna be a hard sell tomorrow asking the public to remain at Alert Level 3 or 4 IF the breach came from within their own managed quantine.

It's gonna be an intriguing day tomorrow that's for sure.

 

This is why it's a tragedy that this is happening so close to an election.  Grandstanding dickheads like WP will play tricks.

 

Of course the cluster probably originated from a "leak" in quarantine.  Do some idiots think it came by magic?

 

 


 
 
 
 


Fred99
10947 posts

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  #2540523 13-Aug-2020 20:23
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antonknee:

 

I do hope this isn't the case - but I feel it's probably the most likely scenario. It will be interesting to see though if this is the case, how it got transmitted to the family at the center of the current cluster - given it's been stated there is AS YET no obvious link to the border/MIQ. 

 

 

This thread is becoming a joke.  I used all caps and bold to highlight what you should have stated.

 

Words have meanings.

 

 


antonknee
422 posts

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  #2540524 13-Aug-2020 20:25
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ockel:

 

If you dont want to undergo a swab then ask to be relocated to a different site, away from the area of risk (no different than hospitals during March/April, or those essential workers (eg supermarkets) who felt the personal risk during L4 and L3 was too high.

 

Sports players in Australia, Europe and the US have accepted regular testing as part of training and playing.  Wouldnt you want to know that you're in a safe environment as evidenced by regular testing?

 

Yes that's fair, and certainly if it was me I would be getting tested for that exact reason (plus a sense of obligation). Were supermarket workers tested regularly during March/April? I honestly don't recall hearing that, but if they were then that's fantastic.

 

ockel:

 

What other checks take place?  A series of questions that may or may not be appropriate?  I believe that the absconders from the Novotel Ellerslie that couldnt find their way to Wellington were asked "Are you or have you been feeling unwell?".  If thats the extent of checks then that'd be extraordinary but, once again, unsurprising.

 

 

I believe what was described today was temperature checks, questioning, symptom checks and declarations, and a few other aspects; as well as of course extensive use of PPE etc.





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Fred99
10947 posts

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  #2540526 13-Aug-2020 20:28
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ockel:

 

antonknee:

 

In fairness it's very hard to force someone to undergo a medical procedure (and doing so potentially brings a whole host of other issues), as much as it may have seemed to make sense in the circumstances. 

 

It has also been made clear that other health checks do take place daily on those workers in the MIQ facilities, and that Covid swabs are a second line of defense.

 

 

If you dont want to undergo a swab then ask to be relocated to a different site, away from the area of risk (no different than hospitals during March/April, or those essential workers (eg supermarkets) who felt the personal risk during L4 and L3 was too high.

 

Sports players in Australia, Europe and the US have accepted regular testing as part of training and playing.  Wouldnt you want to know that you're in a safe environment as evidenced by regular testing?

 

What other checks take place?  A series of questions that may or may not be appropriate?  I believe that the absconders from the Novotel Ellerslie that couldnt find their way to Wellington were asked "Are you or have you been feeling unwell?".  If thats the extent of checks then that'd be extraordinary but, once again, unsurprising.

 

 

They need to offer self-sampled testing, sputum or throat swabs.  The nasopharangeal swab is discouraging people from getting tested.  The facts about discomfort level don't matter - the perception of what it might be like does.  It's not that hard to take a swab yourself, bung it in a jar, and drop it off for testing.l


antonknee
422 posts

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  #2540528 13-Aug-2020 20:29
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Fred99:

 

antonknee:

 

I do hope this isn't the case - but I feel it's probably the most likely scenario. It will be interesting to see though if this is the case, how it got transmitted to the family at the center of the current cluster - given it's been stated there is AS YET no obvious link to the border/MIQ. 

 

 

This thread is becoming a joke.  I used all caps and bold to highlight what you should have stated.

 

Words have meanings.

 

 

 

 

I feel that's splitting hairs, but my apologies nonetheless - the statement there is no obvious link by definition implies there could still be a link (just one that isn't obvious). 

 

I would say this means none of the family work at the border/MIQ or have close contact with someone the border/MIQ, which would be an obvious link. Could be a friend of a friend, or a shared Uber driver, or something like that (ie a not obvious link).





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Sideface
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  #2540531 13-Aug-2020 20:36
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antonknee:  ... I believe what was described today was temperature checks, questioning, symptom checks and declarations, and a few other aspects; as well as of course extensive use of PPE etc.

 

 

For workers in the front line that is not enough - they may have no fever, and no symptoms, and still be an infection hazard to others - at work and at home.

 

PPE - even if properly used (which often it is not) - reduces the risk of transmission, but does not eliminate it.

 

For these people at high risk, regular COVID testing is the best community protection.





Sideface


 
 
 
 


antonknee
422 posts

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  #2540535 13-Aug-2020 20:45
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Sideface:

 

 

antonknee:  ... I believe what was described today was temperature checks, questioning, symptom checks and declarations, and a few other aspects; as well as of course extensive use of PPE etc.

 

 

For workers in the front line that is not enough - they may have no fever, and no symptoms, and still be an infection hazard to others - at work and at home.

 

PPE - even if properly used (which often it is not) - reduces the risk of transmission, but does not eliminate it.

 

For these people at high risk, regular COVID testing is the best community protection.

 

 

I do agree with you. It sounds like those in the quarantine facility are indeed on 7 day testing rotations. The other workers at borders etc are not from the sounds of what Ardern said today. 

 

That said, again requiring people to undergo medical procedures against their will is a dangerous precedent to set. So I don't know how I feel about that to be perfectly honest - necessary but not right? Tough nut to crack IMO.





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Scott3
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  #2540536 13-Aug-2020 20:48
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Ge0rge:

We're not in the business of forcing people to have medical procedures in NZ, not sure why you're speechless?

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/nearly-two-thirds-of-nz-s-covid-19-border-isolation-staff-had-never-been-tested-a-week-ago.html

 

"The Prime Minister says all staff will now face compulsory tests, but a public health expert says it beggars belief this wasn't already happening."

 

Clearly we are willing to have compulsory testing.

 

We are in the midst of a global pandemic. This is the appropriate action.

Frankly it's nut's that we would consider optional testing for those on the front line.

If the government was squeamish about testing being compulsory (appears not), they could simply restrict front line roles to those who have agreed to opt into testing. Or do like arrivals in managed isolation, where those refusing a test are quarantined for 28 days to protect the population.


mattwnz
16708 posts

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  #2540538 13-Aug-2020 20:51
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antonknee:

 

In fairness it's very hard to force someone to undergo a medical procedure (and doing so potentially brings a whole host of other issues), as much as it may have seemed to make sense in the circumstances. 

 

It has also been made clear that other health checks do take place daily on those workers in the MIQ facilities, and that Covid swabs are a second line of defense.

 

 

 

 

I recall the percentage quoted that were declining a test wasn't a large percentage. Those declining were also possibly doing this, because they were being told by the BG and the media that there was no community transmission for months, so the risk of them having it was  also very low  as a result. So people may have thought, well is it worth it, because it will almost certainly come back as negative, and people breaking out of the quarrantine facilities had all be caught etc. I possibly also may have thought this, but knew that that if people don't get tested, then it may delay us picking up a new outbreak. This is essentially what has occurred based on the huge spurt in positive case in one day. I reckon the numbers from this one cluster will be over 100 based on other clusters, and Auckland is not a good place for the outbreak to occur.

 

The fact is, someone has to be that first community case, and the only way to find that community case, is to test. I do wonder what happened to the PMs motto TEST , TEST, TEST. As Trump says, the more you test, the more cases you will get!


Hibino
164 posts

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  #2540544 13-Aug-2020 21:15
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In today China's news (https://finance.sina.com.cn/stock/zqgd/2020-08-13/doc-iivhvpwy0739193.shtml), says test positive on surface of imported frozen chicken wings from Brazil(Reg No#SIF601, Batch#7720051522).

 

If this is true, I guess it will take half year for politicians/media to admit it since I still remember half year ago politicians/media saying wear mask does not help and will even make things worse because wear it wrong/touching face etc blah blah. But look now, it is suggested to wear a mask even level 2, what a joke.


Geektastic
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  #2540546 13-Aug-2020 21:21
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Scott3:

 

Ge0rge:

We're not in the business of forcing people to have medical procedures in NZ, not sure why you're speechless?

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/nearly-two-thirds-of-nz-s-covid-19-border-isolation-staff-had-never-been-tested-a-week-ago.html

 

"The Prime Minister says all staff will now face compulsory tests, but a public health expert says it beggars belief this wasn't already happening."

 

Clearly we are willing to have compulsory testing.

 

We are in the midst of a global pandemic. This is the appropriate action.

Frankly it's nut's that we would consider optional testing for those on the front line.

If the government was squeamish about testing being compulsory (appears not), they could simply restrict front line roles to those who have agreed to opt into testing. Or do like arrivals in managed isolation, where those refusing a test are quarantined for 28 days to protect the population.

 

 

 

 

We require people to do all sorts of things for health and safety. Wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle, wear a seatbelt, refrain from using a phone when driving, wear hard hats on building sites, wear hair nets etc round machinery, wear safety toecap footwear and so on.

 

Requiring people in jobs facing higher risk of Covid infection to be tested seems perfectly reasonable to me.






Ge0rge
770 posts

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  #2540578 13-Aug-2020 22:12
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I guess the point I'm making is that there is a difference between testing those coming into the country and those who are working in the MIF hotels etc.

Those coming in get tested, locked away, tested again, and then only let out once they are proven clear.

Those working there come to work, deal with a large percentage of self-entitled ass-hats for the majority of their day, and then go home again. They have families, close contacts, they go out shopping so they can live etc. They wear ppe at work, have strict distancing protocols when dealing with the guests and each other, they are screened every day when they come to work.

Yes, testing them will add another layer of defence, but it's not going to actually stop an outbreak. Let's say testing day is Monday. They catch it that day too, doesn't show up on the test, they've now got another seven days of spreading it around. The only way to actually make this effective would be to keep those workers isolated in the same way the guests are - you can work in the hotel as long as you like, but if you want to go home, you have to isolate in a room for 14 days with two clear tests before you can step outside the facility. Testing isn't going to make it watertight. We can't close the borders, so the only way to make it work is to isolate everyone involved. There's only one group of people in NZ who you are going to be able to force to do that...

Then you've got the nurses. Working in testing stations for the majority of the week, then closing the testing station and heading to the hotels to test the guests. Multiple hotels in one day, multiple guests, then back to the testing stations the next day. There simply aren't enough of them to go around.

dejadeadnz
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  #2540581 13-Aug-2020 22:17
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Online shops and click and collect allowed or not at level 3?

 

According to the graphics in this article, retail shops can only sell via online orders. Yet this is completely contradicted by the official covid19 website. See here. This is pretty useless "journalism". 


Oblivian
4232 posts

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  #2540583 13-Aug-2020 22:21
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mattwnz:

 

The fact is, someone has to be that first community case, and the only way to find that community case, is to test. I do wonder what happened to the PMs motto TEST , TEST, TEST. As Trump says, the more you test, the more cases you will get!

 

 

We back to that again?

 

You know the answer already. You keep bringing it up (changing of case definition per statistical results of ongoing tests, centres not adhering to those top level changes or being advised of. Chain of command errors, People errors, non dictatorship leadership, law roadblocks)

 

For the love of all things good, PLEASE stop giving the leader of that other country who wouldn't understand the statistical unjust that comes with half the stuff he says if it hit him in the face continual airtime. Have you not seen his interview?

 

We are our own example that if a population actually makes an attempt to believe, get behind advise and true statistics you can starve transference.

 

In an ideal world if we had continued as we did, there would come a point no matter how much testing you do, even if you sat down and did the population 2x over - it wouldn't come with 'more cases' or the continued growth as exponential as under his own nose. It dies out. In the real world, You get cases, but less.

 

It's playing out like many of us said. Despite the golden target, If a call to arms was required. The public would react. 

 

Infact, it's happening more than they expected and want. Now we have the exact people that had no reason or shouldn't be tested, interfering with the process and hindering to help find those who SHOULD be.

 

Would it have made a difference if those same thousands of non-symptomatic, negative test people did it Sunday. Or the Tuesday before it, just to be one of the '4000' target?. I doubt it. Without totalitarian control, It's never not been a game of chance.

 

Things screw up. People screw up. The world's not perfect. Processes aren't perfect.

 

The number of people in line who have been on camera multiple times who 'thought they should come for a test because they have been feeling under the weather the last few days' after the news broke, while still going to work, leisure travel, and not taking notice of the world around us - right there.

 

They are the true statistical muppets of the missing 4000 you are looking for to be making up the numbers in your 'test test test' group. 


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