2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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2394 posts

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#2542155 16-Aug-2020 11:55

Fred99:

If you want to really destroy the hope for NZ to continue to succeed, then overturn everything, fire the boss, kill public confidence and confidence in the system by the people working at the coalface.

So you're okay with a government department acting completely lawlessly without any consequences for senior management? Or promising to test people before they are released from compassionate leave but just not doing it? The strategy is fine. The execution is not. Bloomfield's head should have been on the proverbial stake months ago.

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nyquist

101 posts

Master Geek

#2542156 16-Aug-2020 11:58

Rikkitic:

Dingbatt:

The only time the Director General seemed to be ask any ‘hard’ questions was a weekly interview on breakfast radio. The “relax, we’ve got this” message was broadcast far and wide, parroted by a largely unquestioning media... it came as a shock when the virus reappeared.

That isn't correct. Both Ashley Bloemfield and the PM repeatedly warned that the virus would re-emerge.

+1 I'm not sure if people are getting mixed up with the media's portrayal of the NZ success story but both PM and Ashley Bloomfield have been on record as saying the virus will re-emerge and we shouldn't be complacent. The "when not if" from Ashley Bloomfield was the most recent if I'm recalling currently. He also publically completed the covid test to try and encourage people to do the test because of the falling rates.

I'm also wondering how many people are actually watching the media conferences because I definitely wouldn't classify them as "easy" questions and given Ashley Bloomfield had been asked whether he should resign, I don't think there's any bias here as well.

To be honest, I'm also a bit surprised at the blaming and shaming - to go by some posts in these forums, everyone in the govt or MOH are incompetent and doesn't know how to do their jobs...forgetting there are some actual human beings on the frontline or fronting up to the media trying to do their best under pressure and through complex systems. I keep thinking of the poor analysts working throughout the night to reconcile and breakdown these numbers because I know how difficult it is through my own work experience or the lab techs processing through 1000s of tests. None of this happens by magic.

A lot of people seem to be under the assumption that we can have perfect processes with 0 errors - that is not the case. Humans manage these processes and therefore there will always been risk of error. It's actually the support / back up processes and checkpoints and the continuous improvement / adaptability to mitigate risk that is the true test. So far, I think we have done a pretty good job.

ezbee

2369 posts

Uber Geek

#2542157 16-Aug-2020 12:00

MikeB4:

In times of adversity people need heroes, they give them a positive focus and hope. Rightly or wrongly Dr Bloomfield and to a degree Jacinda Ardern provided the hero focus. One just has to look at Great Britain 1939 desperately needed a hero and Churchill became that focus way above what he should have been assigned.

Churchill , interesting lesson, the electorate may want something else when emergency is over.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/andrew-roberts/churchill-after-the-war/

""
"I found it very odd being turned out of power just at the moment when I imagined I would be able to reap where I had sown,” Winston Churchill wrote about his 1945 general-election defeat to his old friend Hugh Tudor in January 1946, “and perhaps bring about some lasting settlement in this troubled world.”
""

Zepanda66

533 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2542159 16-Aug-2020 12:01

What do you guys think the decision will be on the 21st? Down to level 2 on the 27th? or straight to level 1? Provided there's no level 3 extension? I cant see them doing level 2 for Auckland again personally. Many small businesses wont make it through. If the election sticks with its current date they'd have to go back to Level 1 or risk losing small business votes imo.

http://www.speedtest.net/result/7315955530.png

MikeB4

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#2542160 16-Aug-2020 12:05

Zepanda66:

What do you guys think the decision will be on the 21st? Down to level 2 on the 27th? or straight to level 1? Provided there's no level 3 extension? I cant see them doing level 2 for Auckland again personally. Many small businesses wont make it through. If the election sticks with its current date they'd have to go back to Level 1 or risk losing small business votes imo.

My heart would like to see level 1 but I believe we are deep in the poop and likely hood of level 3 being extended in time and coverage is very high.

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#2542162 16-Aug-2020 12:08

dejadeadnz:

Fred99:

If you want to really destroy the hope for NZ to continue to succeed, then overturn everything, fire the boss, kill public confidence and confidence in the system by the people working at the coalface.

So you're okay with a government department acting completely lawlessly without any consequences for senior management? Or promising to test people before they are released from compassionate leave but just not doing it? The strategy is fine. The execution is not. Bloomfield's head should have been on the proverbial stake months ago.

I'm okay with the overall response by the MoH and Government to handling of the C-19 pandemic.

"Screeching Karens" demanding "the manager is fired" aren't going to fix the issues - and are stirring up some sh*t that's not going to help anything or anybody - but destroy public confidence when public confidence is needed more than ever (since WW2).

Lack of confidence (thus compliance with what we as individuals need to do) will kill people. That's a simple fact.

dejadeadnz

2394 posts

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#2542163 16-Aug-2020 12:12

MikeB4:

My heart would like to see level 1 but I believe we are deep in the poop and likely hood of level 3 being extended in time and coverage is very high.

I am personally calling level 2. And I suspect that will stay for a long while. A few pages ago I referenced what the Aus-equivalent of Bloomfield said about NZ's attitude at level 1 (i.e. too relaxed). If people want to "go back to normal", within reason (e.g. jkust hanging out with friends and going out for meals) I think it's understandable but nonsense like tens of thousands in a freaking stadium mainly for the benefit of some sporting unions and the like must stop. We need to accept that for at least a couple of years (in the event there's no vaccine), our lives must radically change.

Zepanda66

533 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2542165 16-Aug-2020 12:12

MikeB4:

Zepanda66:

What do you guys think the decision will be on the 21st? Down to level 2 on the 27th? or straight to level 1? Provided there's no level 3 extension? I cant see them doing level 2 for Auckland again personally. Many small businesses wont make it through. If the election sticks with its current date they'd have to go back to Level 1 or risk losing small business votes imo.

My heart would like to see level 1 but I believe we are deep in the poop and likely hood of level 3 being extended in time and coverage is very high.

I think well get a better idea on Monday when they announce whats happening with the election. if it sticks id say good sign we going down to at least level 2 if its delayed. We're in this for the long haul.

http://www.speedtest.net/result/7315955530.png

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18602 posts

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#2542167 16-Aug-2020 12:18

Fred99:

I'm okay with the overall response by the MoH and Government to handling of the C-19 pandemic.

"Screeching Karens" demanding "the manager is fired" aren't going to fix the issues - and are stirring up some sh*t that's not going to help anything or anybody - but destroy public confidence when public confidence is needed more than ever (since WW2).

Lack of confidence (thus compliance with what we as individuals need to do) will kill people. That's a simple fact.

I agree with this 100%. Whatever his failings, Dr Bloomfield inspires confidence and reassurance and his presentations are an important part of keeping people motivated to do what is needed. Removing him, especially at this time, would be about the dumbest and most counter-productive move I could imagine.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Fred99

13684 posts

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#2542168 16-Aug-2020 12:21

dejadeadnz:

MikeB4:

My heart would like to see level 1 but I believe we are deep in the poop and likely hood of level 3 being extended in time and coverage is very high.

I am personally calling level 2. And I suspect that will stay for a long while. A few pages ago I referenced what the Aus-equivalent of Bloomfield said about NZ's attitude at level 1 (i.e. too relaxed). If people want to "go back to normal", within reason (e.g. jkust hanging out with friends and going out for meals) I think it's understandable but nonsense like tens of thousands in a freaking stadium mainly for the benefit of some sporting unions and the like must stop. We need to accept that for at least a couple of years (in the event there's no vaccine), our lives must radically change.

While I agree with you - apart from the church service attended by ~300 - I'm not sure if that would have made any difference to preventing / tracing this outbreak.

And that presents a potential problem, as churches are far more likely than sport organisers to come up with conspiracy theories as to why they'd be prevented from meeting as usual. (Not the church involved in this outbreak - the pastor has been very good, and supportive of the welfare of his congregation based on science - not magic).

Fred99

13684 posts

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#2542169 16-Aug-2020 12:25

dejadeadnz:

And piss off with your condescending horse manure of labeling people who raise legitimate concerns about government departments acting lawlessly "Screeching Karens".

But that's precisely how you're coming across. Screeching for AB to be fired. Get a grip.

dejadeadnz

2394 posts

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#2542170 16-Aug-2020 12:27

Fred99:

While I agree with you - apart from the church service attended by ~300 - I'm not sure if that would have made any difference to preventing / tracing this outbreak.

People need to look further than just solving this outbreak. The problem with enabling mass mass gatherings is that there only needs to be a slip and some confluence of circumstances before the impact of a slip (at the border or wherever - because simply there will be one and whatever people's disagreements about the MoH and the relevant government departments, everyone agrees that they are far from perfect) becomes catastrophic. We look to be getting lucky with this one/at least it still seems under control. But why tempt fate?

dejadeadnz

2394 posts

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#2542172 16-Aug-2020 12:28

Fred99:

But that's precisely how you're coming across. Screeching for AB to be fired. Get a grip.

I suggest you get yourself an education about the importance of constitutional propriety and integrity in the civil service. Your last sentence can be equally applied to yourself.

GV27

5883 posts

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#2542179 16-Aug-2020 12:33

Fred99:

dejadeadnz:

And piss off with your condescending horse manure of labeling people who raise legitimate concerns about government departments acting lawlessly "Screeching Karens".

But that's precisely how you're coming across. Screeching for AB to be fired. Get a grip.

Dismissing people who criticise aspects of the response (which has shown at times a wide divergence between what is supposedly happening and what is actually happening) as 'screeching karens' is no better.

MikeB4

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#2542180 16-Aug-2020 12:33

I feel there should be an independent oversight group created made up of legal, medical, financial folk to review what has been done and to continue monitoring ongoing management of this crisis. We simply don't have the benefit of being able to say ooops we got it wrong oh dear, how sad, too bad. Lost lives cannot be restored by apologies, speeches and group hugs. New Zealand has a history of mutual butt covering.

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