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dejadeadnz
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  #2560743 9-Sep-2020 10:35
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MileHighKiwi:

 

Wow. Killing people who breach lockdown restrictions seems a bit extreme. If you go down that road the death toll will be significantly higher than those who died from with Covid in this country.

 

Can you even arrest someone who is dead?

 

Hopefully Andrew Coster doesn't support this idea. 

 

 

I have news for you: if you use force of a sufficient level that threatens officers and others with the prospect of serious injury or death in an attempt to stop them from enforcing any law, they are authorised and will likely use proportionate (i.e. potentially deadly) force against you. It's only been in the Crimes Act for a few decades. That's my point. The point is not that the police should go out to kill anyone breaching COVID laws per se but, rather, that they should be prepared to act with the exact same level of determination to vigorously enforce any public health laws designed to protect people from ***** idiots, just like they would vigorously chase any burglar or whatever. We have had idiots deliberately breaching lockdown laws with (for example) dumb ass protests. First few times you'd say people are just misguided and a less confrontational approach is warranted. The recent ones? Why didn't the police use force to disperse and arrest every single one of them? Because do you think they will let a burglar walk by?

 

There's too much of the educational/persuasive BS and treating these types of people as otherwise "good" and harmless individuals. They are not. Arrest and oppose bail on anyone seriously flouting the regulations. Treat these people as the scum and criminals that they are. I am not approaching this from an emotive POV of "OMG think of the grandma that you might be killing!" but, rather, the objective reality that these people can cause enormous social, financial and health-outcomes related damage that can be easily prevented if they'd just stop being dicks.

 

frankv:

 

I agree that the *financial* benefits of professional sports are as you say. But my point is that the welfare, as in quality of life, of many, many other people is impinged on when they don't get to watch it. After all, all those people are prepared to pay in total a large amount of money to watch sports. They wouldn't do that if it didn't have some perceived value. So this value needs to be taken into account when making decisions.

 

 

In measuring the extent of taking away something actually affects people's quality of life, you also need to consider substitutes. Some person plonking down passively watching sports somewhere/sometime is just after passive entertainment. During the current extraordinary circumstances, they can go and find all kinds of other solutions to keep themselves entertained. Also, no one has a god-given right to enact their preferences if their preferences harm other people. This especially when the harm they cause is entirely out of proportion to any gains objectively measurable from this entertainment.

 

Edit: expanded my thoughts a bit in the first reply.

 

 


 
 
 
 


Fred99
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  #2560803 9-Sep-2020 11:09
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DS248:

 

Setback to Oxford Uni vaccine programme.

 

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-vaccine-trials-at-oxford-university-suffers-setback-after-participants-suspected-severe-adverse-reaction-c-1301824

 

 

"Setback" in terms of possible delay until a presently "unexplained" possible reaction is investigated (ie it may not be an adverse reaction to the vaccine at all).

 

to quote Wkipedia:

 

Adverse effects: pain at the injection site, headache, fever, chills, muscle achemalaise in more than 60% of participants; paracetamol allowed for some participants to increase tolerability

 

The "in more than 60% of participants" suggests to me that adverse reactions are a little higher than most common vaccines, maybe that's something to do with dose which may be able to be reduced/optimised.  But doing that takes a lot of trial work.

 

(anyway I read the headline and had a hollow feeling - the text of the article needs to be read - it's not as alarming or unexpected as may be implied from the headline alone).


GV27
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  #2560812 9-Sep-2020 11:19
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1pm press conference today with Dr Bloomfield, not a statement. Could have always been planned so unsure if we should read anything into at this point, plus no PM suggests no serious developments. 


Batman

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  #2560872 9-Sep-2020 11:44
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Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


frankv
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  #2560971 9-Sep-2020 12:50
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dejadeadnz:

 

In measuring the extent of taking away something actually affects people's quality of life, you also need to consider substitutes. Some person plonking down passively watching sports somewhere/sometime is just after passive entertainment. During the current extraordinary circumstances, they can go and find all kinds of other solutions to keep themselves entertained. Also, no one has a god-given right to enact their preferences if their preferences harm other people. This especially when the harm they cause is entirely out of proportion to any gains objectively measurable from this entertainment.

 

 

People spend their money on what they choose because they perceive that spending it that way will improve their life in some way, that it's good value for money. So depriving them of that will harm them. Just because you believe that [whatever substitute you enjoy] is better than "plonking down passively watching sports" doesn't mean it's true for everyone. Objective measurement is impossible. A little bit of consideration goes a long way.

 

 


MikeB4
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  #2560976 9-Sep-2020 13:00
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frankv:

 

 

 

People spend their money on what they choose because they perceive that spending it that way will improve their life in some way, that it's good value for money. So depriving them of that will harm them. Just because you believe that [whatever substitute you enjoy] is better than "plonking down passively watching sports" doesn't mean it's true for everyone. Objective measurement is impossible. A little bit of consideration goes a long way.

 

 

 

 

From your earlier post "But my point is that the welfare, as in quality of life, of many, many other people is impinged on when they don't get to watch it. " The quality of life or life is far greater impinged if a outbreak that impacts all of Aotearoa occurs because some what o watch their sport now and not wait a few months until there is real mitigation in place to deal with the risks. I realise that sport is important to many, myself included but it cannot be at the risk of causing an outbreak. 


 
 
 
 


dejadeadnz
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  #2560977 9-Sep-2020 13:01
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frankv:
People spend their money on what they choose because they perceive that spending it that way will improve their life in some way, that it's good value for money. So depriving them of that will harm them. Just because you believe that [whatever substitute you enjoy] is better than "plonking down passively watching sports" doesn't mean it's true for everyone. Objective measurement is impossible. A little bit of consideration goes a long way.


Christ, get a bloody grip. How can anyone reasonably argue that not being able to watch some sports potentially outweighs the public health and socio-economic harm of Covid? If there’s any reasonable risk of Covid being spread because of bloody sport, then the approach of any sensible regulatory authority anywhere so far is to either stop them outright and/or prevent spectators.

You are just going to have to deal with this and have a cry over something else.

GV27
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  #2560984 9-Sep-2020 13:09
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Six cases, all Auckland cluster-related. 


MikeB4
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  #2560989 9-Sep-2020 13:15
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GV27:

 

Six cases, all Auckland cluster-related. 

 

 

One is reported as being a bus driver that was driving up until Saturday. This could be a problem.


Oblivian
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  #2560994 9-Sep-2020 13:19
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GV27:

 

Six cases, all Auckland cluster-related. 

 

 

Akl SUB cluster.

 

Basically there is 3 it seems - Auckland. The Church. And now a further 'bereavement' group of 14 total now as a result of 'church sub cluster' member going to some form of a funeral/house visit to keep the 10 limit? (where 48 are known... )

 

 

 

/edit and now clarified as a Tangi - which had 50 limit?


Batman

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  #2560996 9-Sep-2020 13:20
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GV27:

 

Six cases, all Auckland cluster-related

 

 

that could be completely true, but while it may be completely truthful, it could be quite misleading!

 

*sigh watch this space ...

 

remember the entire Victorian lockdown saga originate from 2 people in managed quarantine (that's what i was told here and read elsewhere)





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


GV27
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  #2560999 9-Sep-2020 13:21
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Oblivian:

 

 

 

/edit and now clarified as a Tangi - which had 50 limit?

 

 

From the Stuff liveblog:

 

108 contacts have been identified from the bereavement event, Bloomfield said

 

 

 

Could be 50 people plus household contacts as casuals but I'm perhaps leaning towards cynicism here. 

frankv
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  #2561000 9-Sep-2020 13:22
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MikeB4:

 

From your earlier post "But my point is that the welfare, as in quality of life, of many, many other people is impinged on when they don't get to watch it. " The quality of life or life is far greater impinged if a outbreak that impacts all of Aotearoa occurs because some what o watch their sport now and not wait a few months until there is real mitigation in place to deal with the risks. I realise that sport is important to many, myself included but it cannot be at the risk of causing an outbreak. 

 

 

Yes, of course, an outbreak of covid is far, far worse than missing a couple of rugby games. But a ban on all spectator sports isn't the only answer. Management of the risk is possible, so that people don't have to give up their inessential but enjoyable activities.

 

 


Oblivian
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  #2561008 9-Sep-2020 13:29
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I wasn't far off. Number to be clarified but between 30-40.

 

And it sounds as if a known close contact, pending results was one who attended.

 

 

 

Public endangerment springs to mind.


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