2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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367 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2562459 11-Sep-2020 17:40

MikeB4:

Good grief what the hell is wrong with these people. They are supposed to be leaders yet they are showing the exact opposite. Talk about selfish self interest and bugger the wider community.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/425733/airlines-need-chance-for-full-flights-during-school-holidays-tourism-boss

I can tell you who is exactly selfish about this.

Me.

I have not worked since the 31st March, have not been paid and me and my family have been living off my savings since then. Today I have put my house on the market in order to still have some form of money to feed my family. I am lucky to actually actually have a house to sell, a number of my colleagues don’t even have that.

I am selfish as the Prime Minister has ignored the advice we have provided by the experts at IATA, ICAO and the WHO stating the social distancing is not required in an aircraft as long as masks are worn. Social distancing on an aircraft doesn’t happen even at present. Currently on a domestic jet aircraft there is 48cm distance between someone sitting at the window and someone sitting at the aisle. Then the person behind you is 68cm away. There is none of this 2m rubbish which is “required” by the government, social distancing on an aircraft is the biggest freaking joke you’ve ever heard.

Those who suggest I should’ve found another job during lockdown, must realise that being stood down on leave without pay requires me with 48 hours notice to be able to return to work for them. This alone has meant that almost every job application has been turned into a rejection.

So resign then? Not such an easy prospect when you’ve dedicated 20 years of your life, spent over $100,000 becoming qualified and are now getting close to the top rung in your field. How many heart surgeons would walk away from their career to retrain to become an accountant? Not many, I would imagine. Being made redundant would be an easier option, as I would have access to a redundancy payout, insurance payouts and the 12 week COVID payment, which would mean I would have the funds to retrain. Resigning means I get none of that assistance.

So bugger the wider community as you say, I need to provide for my family and right now that has a larger significance to not just me, but almost everyone else in the aviation and tourism industry. In aviation we have always been the canary in the coal mine when it comes to the economy, what happens to us is where the economy will be in 12 months time. What is happening to me is scary, it will be very very scary for everyone else next year.

dejadeadnz

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#2562461 11-Sep-2020 17:41

mattwnz: How could they be playing within 3 days of arrival into NZ. Does COVID not infect rugby players in the same way? Also why does Rugby get special treatment. Are they forgetting that the world is in the middle of a pandemic and the only reason the virus spread to different country is because of travel where people didn’t quarantine properly for 14 days. We just have to look at the UK that have imposed new restrictions due to a new wave and can’t have any gatherings of more than 6 people. They may not have a Christmas if it continues until then.

A lot of rugby heads become voluntary amoeba when anything gets in the way of their rugby. Here's what one neanderthal in the Herald (Gregor Paul) wrote in a so called "Premium", aka paywalled, article:

The fact that the Government were willing to budge from their initial insistence of a maximum of 10, to 15 last week to 25 on the eve of the decision being made, only enhanced the sense the numbers were not rational or scientific. So why bother with them at all?

To infuriate further is the contradiction and inconsistency. Every day we have legal, super-spreader events when thousands of schoolchildren congregate, breathing and spluttering in each other's faces in overcrowded classrooms.

Many teenagers, as every parent knows, don't have the highest regard for personal hygiene or good health protocol. High performance sports teams, on the other hand, are highly practised at hand-washing and best health practice as they live in constant fear of any virus ripping through them.

Some guy and the editors at Herald apparently can't quite work out why we as a civilised society are prepared to accept some risks to keep kids educated but aren't for a game of rugby.

dejadeadnz

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#2562470 11-Sep-2020 17:52

empacher48:

So bugger the wider community as you say, I need to provide for my family and right now that has a larger significance to not just me, but almost everyone else in the aviation and tourism industry. In aviation we have always been the canary in the coal mine when it comes to the economy, what happens to us is where the economy will be in 12 months time. What is happening to me is scary, it will be very very scary for everyone else next year.

Horrible as this sounds, just what exactly do you expect the government/community to do? Even if we somehow allowed more flights, the only way to substantially increase aviation demand would be to allow in overseas visitors and both mainstream parties are largely agreed on opening the border. Society has spoken, quite frankly. In any event, we wouldn't have enough isolation capacity. And through your post, I take it that you are at least a FO on a jet? And full disclosure before the likes of Technofreak and the usual crowd jump along asking "How much have you suffered?": I work for a utility and I know how lucky I am, especially since my wife is a hospital specialist doctor. As a FO, one would imagine you'd have reasonable savings -- I am not saying this makes it okay or not horrible for you but there's really very little that people affected by such a substantial crisis can do beyond riding things out best as they can with their own resources or government help. At the moment you appear to have more resources than many in a similar plight.

ockel

2031 posts

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#2562471 11-Sep-2020 17:53

mattwnz: How could they be playing within 3 days of arrival into NZ. Does COVID not infect rugby players in the same way? Also why does Rugby get special treatment. Are they forgetting that the world is in the middle of a pandemic and the only reason the virus spread to different country is because of travel where people didn’t quarantine properly for 14 days. We just have to look at the UK that have imposed new restrictions due to a new wave and can’t have any gatherings of more than 6 people. They may not have a Christmas if it continues until then.

I think you misunderstand the Ministers statement.

They could be TRAINING within 3 days of arrival. Not playing. This would mean that a team would be considered a bubble. They would essentially be in managed isolation for the 14 days as a group and would still be required to have negative tests at Day 3 and Day 12. The big risk is that if any test positive then they could all be required to remain in managed isolation until the whole group is cleared.

Its no different to when the NZ Warriors went to Australia, no different to the White Ferns (who leave very soon). They travel as a group, go into managed isolation as a group, train as a group. If they were smart then they'd employ a third party Bluetooth tracking system like professional sports teams in other countries (like NFL's Kinexon) so they know who has been near who, for how long etc.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

empacher48

367 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2562486 11-Sep-2020 18:16

dejadeadnz:

Horrible as this sounds, just what exactly do you expect the government/community to do?

Easy, government needs to listen to those people who are experts, IATA, ICAO and WHO have spoken. Our government refuse to listen.

The community has spoken, there is large demand for domestic travel, more than enough for almost all domestic flights to operate. Domestic aviation in NZ has been running at close to 80% pre Covid levels prior to the last Auckland lockdown. We don’t need many international flights to be successful.

dejadeadnz:
As a FO, one would imagine you'd have reasonable savings -- I am not saying this makes it okay or not horrible for you but there's really very little that people affected by such a substantial crisis can do beyond riding things out best as they can with their own resources or government help. At the moment you appear to have more resources than many in a similar plight.

I did have an OK amount of savings, which has now gone. I had 1 month at normal pay, as I am reasonably new to the role and been starting to actually earn a reasonable amount of money. But that has gone. I am now being forced to to sell the house to stay afloat, although I was only able to buy my first house 3 years ago, so the equity isn’t much.

I know people who work with me with a lot less, some of whom took what they thought was the easy way out, but all they did was leave a larger mess for their families to try and deal with after the funeral.

Handle9

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#2562502 11-Sep-2020 18:44

empacher48:
dejadeadnz:

Horrible as this sounds, just what exactly do you expect the government/community to do?

Easy, government needs to listen to those people who are experts, IATA, ICAO and WHO have spoken. Our government refuse to listen.

The community has spoken, there is large demand for domestic travel, more than enough for almost all domestic flights to operate. Domestic aviation in NZ has been running at close to 80% pre Covid levels prior to the last Auckland lockdown. We don’t need many international flights to be successful.

In all fairness IATA, ICAO and ACI are industry groups who exist to benefit the airline and airport industry, they aren't health experts. I work in the sector and while I still have a job it is obviously at risk.

There are still a lot of moving parts that no one really knows how to make travel work safely yet. We are all working to get there but social distancing is incredibly challenging in commercial aviation.

Handle9

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#2562505 11-Sep-2020 18:53

dejadeadnz:
A lot of rugby heads become voluntary amoeba when anything gets in the way of their rugby. Here's what one neanderthal in the Herald (Gregor Paul) wrote in a so called "Premium", aka paywalled, article:

The fact that the Government were willing to budge from their initial insistence of a maximum of 10, to 15 last week to 25 on the eve of the decision being made, only enhanced the sense the numbers were not rational or scientific. So why bother with them at all?

To infuriate further is the contradiction and inconsistency. Every day we have legal, super-spreader events when thousands of schoolchildren congregate, breathing and spluttering in each other's faces in overcrowded classrooms.

Many teenagers, as every parent knows, don't have the highest regard for personal hygiene or good health protocol. High performance sports teams, on the other hand, are highly practised at hand-washing and best health practice as they live in constant fear of any virus ripping through them.

Some guy and the editors at Herald apparently can't quite work out why we as a civilised society are prepared to accept some risks to keep kids educated but aren't for a game of rugby.

The New Zealand rugby media is largely a mouth piece for the NZRU. I'm highly dubious of the NZRUs competence and ethics in playing nicely with other organisations.

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empacher48

367 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2562516 11-Sep-2020 19:24

Handle9:

In all fairness IATA, ICAO and ACI are industry groups who exist to benefit the airline and airport industry, they aren't health experts. I work in the sector and while I still have a job it is obviously at risk.

There are still a lot of moving parts that no one really knows how to make travel work safely yet. We are all working to get there but social distancing is incredibly challenging in commercial aviation.

ICAO isn’t just an industry group, they are a division of the UN to create the rules and provide advice to countries who are signatories to the UN. The CART they have had in place since March to deal with COVID makes some very clear guidelines and as ICAO is part of the UN, gets its information from that other part of the UN that does deal with International Health emergencies, except if you believe Donald Trump.

The airline I operate for currently exceeds the requirements made in the CART and the policies and procedures have already been accepted as suitable for every country we operate in, EXCEPT New Zealand. For some reason, our Prime Minister knows more, even when her experts agree with our procedures.

MikeB4

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#2562568 11-Sep-2020 19:46

empacher48:

ICAO isn’t just an industry group, they are a division of the UN to create the rules and provide advice to countries who are signatories to the UN. The CART they have had in place since March to deal with COVID makes some very clear guidelines and as ICAO is part of the UN, gets its information from that other part of the UN that does deal with International Health emergencies, except if you believe Donald Trump.

The airline I operate for currently exceeds the requirements made in the CART and the policies and procedures have already been accepted as suitable for every country we operate in, EXCEPT New Zealand. For some reason, our Prime Minister knows more, even when her experts agree with our procedures.

The PM job is to take into account the well-being of all New Zealand and not just one industry sector the Mayor of Queenstown and those wanting to get their jollies on the mountain. She also needs to act knowing that the selfish will try to travel when they shouldn’t putting everyone at risk. It baffles me that after eight months there still so many that just don’t get the seriousness of this disease.

mattwnz

20108 posts

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#2562572 11-Sep-2020 20:04

ockel:
mattwnz: How could they be playing within 3 days of arrival into NZ. Does COVID not infect rugby players in the same way? Also why does Rugby get special treatment. Are they forgetting that the world is in the middle of a pandemic and the only reason the virus spread to different country is because of travel where people didn’t quarantine properly for 14 days. We just have to look at the UK that have imposed new restrictions due to a new wave and can’t have any gatherings of more than 6 people. They may not have a Christmas if it continues until then.

I think you misunderstand the Ministers statement.

They could be TRAINING within 3 days of arrival. Not playing. This would mean that a team would be considered a bubble. They would essentially be in managed isolation for the 14 days as a group and would still be required to have negative tests at Day 3 and Day 12. The big risk is that if any test positive then they could all be required to remain in managed isolation until the whole group is cleared.

Its no different to when the NZ Warriors went to Australia, no different to the White Ferns (who leave very soon). They travel as a group, go into managed isolation as a group, train as a group. If they were smart then they'd employ a third party Bluetooth tracking system like professional sports teams in other countries (like NFL's Kinexon) so they know who has been near who, for how long etc.

Training also includes playing. Players come into physical contact with one another during training /playing and balls and equipment could then have covid on surfaces which all needs to be avoided during the 14 day quarantine period. Quarantine is about keeping all players physically distanced from one another for 14 days so the virus can't spread and if anyone has the virus they will either have symptoms or test positive during that time. They were talking about putting players into bubbles that they could train in, but didn't sound like they wanted to play ball with that.

empacher48

367 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2562575 11-Sep-2020 20:25

MikeB4:

The PM job is to take into account the well-being of all New Zealand and not just one industry sector the Mayor of Queenstown and those wanting to get their jollies on the mountain. She also needs to act knowing that the selfish will try to travel when they shouldn’t putting everyone at risk. It baffles me that after eight months there still so many that just don’t get the seriousness of this disease.

She’s done well to protect those people at high risk from dying from COVID. However we’ve had 24 people die from that. In my circle of society I know of at least 30 people die by their own hands since the start of the first lockdown. Not all of them in my industry. Some were butchers, restaurant owners, retail shop owners, all who lost their businesses, livelihoods while lockdown. In that case she isn’t looking out for the well-being of all New Zealanders.

Yes COVID-19 is a serious disease for some people, just as influenza, measles, Dengue Fever, HIV, Cancer. Unlike COVID we just accept that thousands of New Zealanders will die of these diseases every year (well, maybe not Dengue and there won’t be many from measles).

But what if there is no vaccine. A lot of medical journals I’ve read are concerned that a Covid vaccine will cause ADE. As the only mass produced coronavirus vaccine in the world was for the FCoV virus in cats. However most vets will not give cats the vaccine because of the high risk of it causing a far more serious disease in vaccinated cats (basically the vaccine causes antibodies that recognise the spike protein on the coronavirus, but then the antibodies help the virus enter cells more efficiently, causing a far more serious disease). ADE is also the reason why there is no HIV vaccine, or Dengue Vaccine. Vaccine-Induced enhancement of viral infections

Handle9

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#2562576 11-Sep-2020 20:27

empacher48:
Handle9:

In all fairness IATA, ICAO and ACI are industry groups who exist to benefit the airline and airport industry, they aren't health experts. I work in the sector and while I still have a job it is obviously at risk.

There are still a lot of moving parts that no one really knows how to make travel work safely yet. We are all working to get there but social distancing is incredibly challenging in commercial aviation.

ICAO isn’t just an industry group, they are a division of the UN to create the rules and provide advice to countries who are signatories to the UN. The CART they have had in place since March to deal with COVID makes some very clear guidelines and as ICAO is part of the UN, gets its information from that other part of the UN that does deal with International Health emergencies, except if you believe Donald Trump.

The airline I operate for currently exceeds the requirements made in the CART and the policies and procedures have already been accepted as suitable for every country we operate in, EXCEPT New Zealand. For some reason, our Prime Minister knows more, even when her experts agree with our procedures.

ICAO is made up of people from the industry. It's primary focus is to facilitate the industry, which it should. That doesn't make it an independent body and governments have to take a wider view.

While NZ has a strategy of elimination and inadequate quarantine facilities international travel doesn't work. It's not going to happen in NZ in the medium term. Personally I don't expect to make it back to NZ in the next 2 years.

Other countries have different strategies and have travel recovering more quickly but they are accepting a different risk profile. You can not look at travel independent of the wider strategy There are economic consequences of New Zealands overall strategy and they will become increasingly severe. That needs to be balanced obviously.

Regardless of what countries accept it's still carnage in the industry globally with massive layoffs.

kingdragonfly

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#2562670 11-Sep-2020 20:42

freitasm:
"The Story Behind TIME's Issue Marking Nearly 200,000 U.S. Deaths—and Why Its Border Is Black For the Second Time in History"

Trump loves the "Times" magazine covers.

But I suspect this one won't make it to wall on the the Mar-a-Lago Club, also known as Trump's Winter White House.

empacher48

367 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2562674 11-Sep-2020 20:52

Handle9:

ICAO is made up of people from the industry. It's primary focus is to facilitate the industry, which it should. That doesn't make it an independent body and governments have to take a wider view.

Yes, and the WHO is a bunch of doctors, who do the same thing for the medical field, they all part of the UN and are providing guidance to governments.

Handle9:

While NZ has a strategy of elimination and inadequate quarantine facilities international travel doesn't work. It's not going to happen in NZ in the medium term.

I am not advocating for unrestricted international travel in and out of New Zealand, however when operating domestically we can do that with minimal risk.

The policies and procedures developed by our organisation early in Level 4, exceeded the NZ government’s own requirements at all alert levels, except for the social distancing requirements. Since then, they have only improved to the point where we know where the New Zealand government will be going in 3 months time, as the procedures we developed in April are implemented on other forms of public transport this month, except for social distancing.

There will never, ever be social distancing of 2m in an aircraft ever. Otherwise on a narrow body aircraft with 30 rows of seats, will only be able to carry 20 people. So having current social distancing of less than 50cm is a joke. At least wearing a mask will stop droplets travelling anymore than 15cm, which means it wouldn’t even hit the seat back in front of you.

dejadeadnz

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#2562675 11-Sep-2020 20:53

empacher48:

Yes COVID-19 is a serious disease for some people, just as influenza, measles, Dengue Fever, HIV, Cancer. Unlike COVID we just accept that thousands of New Zealanders will die of these diseases every year (well, maybe not Dengue and there won’t be many from measles).

You've jumped the shark if you seriously believe in this crap. COVID, unlike cancer or the flu, has the potential of overwhelming the health system. A lot of the long term damage isn't yet known. Whether you like it or not, whatever the government does or doesn't do, the aviation industry in the short to medium term won't come back to what it was. You should start making alternative arrangements.

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