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gehenna
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  #2562678 11-Sep-2020 21:07
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Quit it or take a trip to another site for a few days, because this one will be closed to you if you persist in calling people names.

dejadeadnz
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  #2562686 11-Sep-2020 21:23
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The fundamental issue here is that the OP is taking a science denial path -- it's simply not just like the flu, cancer or whatever else he listed. Cancer cases don't overwhelm the health system because there isn't typically a mass increase of people who get cancer, nor has there been been instances where the flu overwhelmed our health system (overworked, e.g. 100%+ hospital occupancy isn't the same as overwhelmed). The R factor of COVID is completely different from anything else listed in his post.

 

Yes, he lost his job and that's sad. But facts are facts.

 

 


 
 
 
 


empacher48
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  #2562687 11-Sep-2020 21:23
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dejadeadnz:

 

empacher48:

 

Yes COVID-19 is a serious disease for some people, just as influenza, measles, Dengue Fever, HIV, Cancer. Unlike COVID we just accept that thousands of New Zealanders will die of these diseases every year (well, maybe not Dengue and there won’t be many from measles).

 

 

You've jumped the shark if you seriously believe in this crap. COVID, unlike cancer or the flu, has the potential of overwhelming the health system. A lot of the long term damage isn't yet known. At some point, suffering from bad luck doesn't entitle you to a free licence to be a jerk. Whether you like it or not, whatever the government does or doesn't do, the aviation industry in the short to medium term won't come back to what it was. You should start making alternative arrangements.

 

 

But influenza does that every winter, the Auckland Regional Health Service even last year had many ads on the radio telling people with cold and flu symptoms to see their GP and not go to the ED so they didn’t overwhelm the hospitals with influenza patients. I remember them as, like a lot of Aucklanders, I do spend a lot of time sitting in my car stuck in traffic.

 

I’m sorry if you think I am being a jerk, but it does appear that the fear of this virus spreads faster and wider than the actual virus has. How many articles have made headline news of someone recovering from this disease? How many articles have looked at the statistical relevance of how infectious it really is (r0 of 3 is nowhere near that of measles r0 of 15)? Against how many articles have been written about the deaths, or the people who have had long term repercussions from it? 

 

I never said it was not serious disease, as it can be a serious disease to some people. If you are a fit and healthy 30 year old, non smoker and no pre-existing conditions, then it is likely to be a mild case, however, if you are over 50, smoker, overweight with high blood pressure, then you have a better chance of having a serious case. Probably in line with a lot of other respiratory diseases.


dejadeadnz
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  #2562690 11-Sep-2020 21:29
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empacher48:

 

I’m sorry if you think I am being a jerk, but it does appear that the fear of this virus spreads faster and wider than the actual virus has. How many articles have made headline news of someone recovering from this disease? How many articles have looked at the statistical relevance of how infectious it really is (r0 of 3 is nowhere near that of measles r0 of 15)? Against how many articles have been written about the deaths, or the people who have had long term repercussions from it? 

 

 

Again, if you're just going to be selective with whatever that supports your view of the world, you're welcome to "debate" with yourself. But for the record, here's an obvious difference: we have an effective vaccine for measles.

 

Yeah, the whole world is just together on a little conspiracy to overplay this. And everyone is just being stupid... because somehow they are out to destroy your job. I am not wasting my time with this anymore.

 

 

 

 


rugrat
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  #2562691 11-Sep-2020 21:29
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empacher48:

 

Yes COVID-19 is a serious disease for some people, just as influenza, measles, Dengue Fever, HIV, Cancer. Unlike COVID we just accept that thousands of New Zealanders will die of these diseases every year (well, maybe not Dengue and there won’t be many from measles).

 

 

HIV takes physical contact, Cancer doesn't spread death to or health problems to people in contact. This spreads through air and surface contact. With masks on planes, sometimes people will need to sneeze, blow their nose, do that with a mask on.

 

And more people would die if virus is allowed to spread then people that take their own lives because earnings are reduced or lost. More people would die if business's allowed to operate freely. Influenza death rate is a lot lower as well, and you already mentioned not many people will get sick from other two.

 

Just one example of moving on, A qualified train driver earns just more than $40 an hour.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12331870

 

 


freitasm
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  #2562695 11-Sep-2020 21:45
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ockel:

 

Its no different to when the NZ Warriors went to Australia, no different to the White Ferns (who leave very soon).  They travel as a group, go into managed isolation as a group, train as a group. If they were smart then they'd employ a third party Bluetooth tracking system like professional sports teams in other countries (like NFL's Kinexon) so they know who has been near who, for how long etc.

 

 

It's well for these people to go and train in isolation until they meet the locals who were not in isolation or breached their local rules. Sure, they will come back and then have to be in isolation again on this side of the trip. How many times would anyone think this is feasible?





 

 

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dejadeadnz
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  #2562696 11-Sep-2020 21:48
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rugrat:

 

Just one example of moving on, A qualified train driver earns just more than $40 an hour.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12331870

 

 

I don't even think the debate here really needs to be tie back to whether there is anything to move on to. The fact is people in the aviation industry mostly have no choice because governments around the world have taken most of the choice away from them. As an example, here's an up-to-date page with EU countries' travel restrictions. The EU is, relatively speaking, very open yet there are still significant restrictions upon travelers from outside the EU in particular. Individuals can rail all they like in NZ but we aren't going to be able to beat worldwide trends (i.e. highly restrictive borders). Selective whinging/poorly thought out "proposals" to open up to benefit certain sectors serve only to needlessly undermine the pandemic response and overall political/social legitimacy of the needed cautious approach. 


 
 
 
 


empacher48
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  #2562697 11-Sep-2020 21:49
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dejadeadnz:

 

Again, if you're just going to be selective with whatever that supports your view of the world, you're welcome to "debate" with yourself. But for the record, here's an obvious difference: we have an effective vaccine for measles.

 

Yeah, the whole world is just together on a little conspiracy to overplay this. And everyone is just being stupid... because somehow they are out to destroy your job. I am not wasting my time with this anymore.

 



 

We do have an effective vaccine for the measles, the how come Auckland had the largest outbreak of measles during 2019? How come Samoa closed its boarders with New Zealand because the measles outbreak was carried up there and children started dying?

 

If the vaccine for Covid comes to fruition, then how many people will actually line up to get it? As can be seen by the sub-cluster with the evangelical church, there is become more and more skepticism of science in society. It will be a challenge for our health authorities to encourage uptake in communities where science is treated with skepticism. Just as it was in Samoa with the measles vaccine.

 

I don’t peddle conspiracy theories, I look at the numbers, for example here it states there are 7,019,553 active, reported cases in the world. (As at 2144 NZST 11/09/2020) out of 7,800,000,000 people. Of the 7 million or so active cases, there is 60,741 serious or critical reported cases. Of the circa 28,000,000 reported cases circa 20,359,000 have recovered. About 900,000 out of the 41,000,000 who died this year, died from COVID.

 

I stand by my statement, that fear of the virus is transmitted faster and far more widely than the actual virus.


dejadeadnz
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  #2562698 11-Sep-2020 21:51
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You can stand by it as much as you like -- it's not going to make one sod of difference in terms of outcome. The social, political, public health and scientific consensus is overwhelming. Up to you whether you wish to explore some meaningful alternative employment/financial arrangements or not. I for one have no interest or stake in your affairs.

 

 

 

 


empacher48
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  #2562699 11-Sep-2020 21:54
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dejadeadnz:

 

Up to you whether you wish to explore some meaningful alternative employment/financial arrangements or not. I for one have no interest or stake in your affairs.

 

 

 

 

I have found something else, much more entertaining to do with my time, thank you for that!


dejadeadnz
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  #2562700 11-Sep-2020 21:56
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freitasm:

 

It's well for these people to go and train in isolation until they meet the locals who were not in isolation or breached their local rules. Sure, they will come back and then have to be in isolation again on this side of the trip. How many times would anyone think this is feasible?

 

 

Hey there's no evidence that sports people breach bubble rules!

 

Oh wait. And again.

 

I have no qualms about some risks being taken for the sake of kids' education or something meaningful. But for some stupid spectator sport aka cheap jollies for people? People need to reset their priorities.


Handle9
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  #2562701 11-Sep-2020 22:02
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freitasm:

 

ockel:

 

Its no different to when the NZ Warriors went to Australia, no different to the White Ferns (who leave very soon).  They travel as a group, go into managed isolation as a group, train as a group. If they were smart then they'd employ a third party Bluetooth tracking system like professional sports teams in other countries (like NFL's Kinexon) so they know who has been near who, for how long etc.

 

 

It's well for these people to go and train in isolation until they meet the locals who were not in isolation or breached their local rules. Sure, they will come back and then have to be in isolation again on this side of the trip. How many times would anyone think this is feasible?

 

 

I think it is very feasible if it is setup and run well.

 

Based on what has gone on before I don't have a great deal of faith in our ability to do so.


dejadeadnz
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  #2562704 11-Sep-2020 22:12
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Handle9:

 

Based on what has gone on before I don't have a great deal of faith in our ability to do so.

 

 

It's doable if the sports bodies, for example, are prepared to fund serious minders/controls for their own players and if they have a record of being able to effectively control/hold their players to account. No such historical record exists to justify anyone relying on them. In the alternative, people need to be prepared to accept massively costly and coercive government-based controls around these players. Wouldn't put too much money on that either.

 

Some of the inability for opening up to happen is arguably an own goal. That much is true. But the cards that reality have dealt to the western world and NZ need to be faced. We as a grouping/society lack the personal responsibility and willingness to really sacrifice. Just look at the glacial pace before we moved to wide-ish general mask use in public.


dejadeadnz
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  #2562710 11-Sep-2020 22:39
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Meanwhile, why hasn't the person from the church who was supposed to be isolating and then decided to visit some mourning family been prosecuted yet? Orders to isolate are directions under the Health Act and intentionally breaching those are criminal offences.


Again, we are just stupidly soft and lacking in discipline.


Scott3
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  #2562719 11-Sep-2020 23:25
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dejadeadnz:

 

Meanwhile, why hasn't the person from the church who was supposed to be isolating and then decided to visit some mourning family been prosecuted yet? Orders to isolate are directions under the Health Act and intentionally breaching those are criminal offences.

 

 

 

Again, we are just stupidly soft and lacking in discipline.

 



Any enforcement should come at a time when it is effective at changing behavior. For example a twice daily personal visit or video call to check people required to be in isolation are at home, and big penalties if they are not (incl being arrested and moved to a more secure facility).

Prosecuting those unlucky enough to have spread the virus, risks being counterproductive. The last thing we want such people to do is to hide their tracks to minimize the charges against them. I would be willing to offer formal indemnity improve out contact tracing result. Seems that those with the virus get some kind of informal indemnity as is.


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