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Buster
51 posts

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  #2565725 16-Sep-2020 10:28
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shk292:I'd be interested to know how many inbound passengers are arriving at Vietnam's borders every week.  My guess would be "very few".  Ditto for the Pacific islands.  That's our Achilles Heel - the number of people flooding into NZ and the inescapable law of probability that says it will cause outbreaks.  But we have chosen to enable relatively easy travel into NZ despite the pandemic so that is a consequence we have to live with and minimise. 

 

As long as NZ looks a bit like the promised land to our expats compared to wherever they are (from a covid perspective) they will continue to arrive. Worldwide covid infection numbers are still not reducing (steadily rising if anything). India is on a steady upward trajectory.

 

We should expect the percentage of positive cases flying in to steadily increase too. Just got to hope we catch them at the border. Would be nice to screen them out before they get on the plane.


GV27
2348 posts

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  #2565726 16-Sep-2020 10:28
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tdgeek:

 

You would think that since March we would all know that, its been drummed in continually

 

 

You would think so, but apparently we still have people who have been deemed at-risk enough to be tested just living their lives as normal. So, perhaps a helpful reminder of what to do if you receive an alert on the app or from a contract tracing team would be useful. 


 
 
 
 


shk292
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  #2565740 16-Sep-2020 10:40
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Buster:As long as NZ looks a bit like the promised land to our expats compared to wherever they are (from a covid perspective) they will continue to arrive. Worldwide covid infection numbers are still not reducing (steadily rising if anything). India is on a steady upward trajectory.

 

We should expect the percentage of positive cases flying in to steadily increase too. Just got to hope we catch them at the border. Would be nice to screen them out before they get on the plane.

 

 

Agreed - so maybe we should be applying some control to this, as other countries have.  For example, if your current place of residence is not NZ and you have legal right to remain there (eg you have dual citizenship or permanent residence) then you don't have automatic right of entry to NZ while the pandemic is extant.


vexxxboy
3312 posts

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  #2565797 16-Sep-2020 11:50
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shk292:

 

Buster:As long as NZ looks a bit like the promised land to our expats compared to wherever they are (from a covid perspective) they will continue to arrive. Worldwide covid infection numbers are still not reducing (steadily rising if anything). India is on a steady upward trajectory.

 

We should expect the percentage of positive cases flying in to steadily increase too. Just got to hope we catch them at the border. Would be nice to screen them out before they get on the plane.

 

 

Agreed - so maybe we should be applying some control to this, as other countries have.  For example, if your current place of residence is not NZ and you have legal right to remain there (eg you have dual citizenship or permanent residence) then you don't have automatic right of entry to NZ while the pandemic is extant.

 

 

except all new zealanders , by law , have the automatic right to enter their  country of birth or residence and just because there is a pandemic doesn't alter the law.





Common sense is not as common as you think.


shk292
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  #2565800 16-Sep-2020 11:55
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vexxxboy:

 

except all new zealanders , by law , have the automatic right to enter their  country of birth or residence and just because there is a pandemic doesn't alter the law.

 

 

Isn't that why we have a government - to amend laws if necessary?

 

I'm an NZ citizen, and also a UK citizen.  I previously spent 20+ years living in the UK.  If I was there now, why should I expect to be able to decide to relocate to NZ, with the risk this brings to NZ, while there is a global pandemic going on?


tdgeek
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  #2565808 16-Sep-2020 12:06
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shk292:

 

vexxxboy:

 

except all new zealanders , by law , have the automatic right to enter their  country of birth or residence and just because there is a pandemic doesn't alter the law.

 

 

Isn't that why we have a government - to amend laws if necessary?

 

I'm an NZ citizen, and also a UK citizen.  I previously spent 20+ years living in the UK.  If I was there now, why should I expect to be able to decide to relocate to NZ, with the risk this brings to NZ, while there is a global pandemic going on?

 

 

I doubt you could as your current resident status as per your example would be the UK, so you would be stuck there. If you argued based on NZ Citizenship, well you are already safe and secure in a country that you are a citizen of. As distinct from being in Estonia for example at the moment and need to get home


GV27
2348 posts

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  #2565814 16-Sep-2020 12:16
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vexxxboy:

 

except all new zealanders , by law , have the automatic right to enter their  country of birth or residence and just because there is a pandemic doesn't alter the law.

 

 

There is clearly practical limits to this - when flights are grounded due to weather or other events, it's not considered a breach of human rights. We are already restricting flights as we have capacity constraints in quarantine, and charging for airline tickets isn't considered this a breach either - even though it could be argued they're an obstacle for Kiwis coming home as well. Again, not considered a massive breach of human rights. 

 

It's not something that has been tested in a global pandemic/economic downturn of this scale, and guess what? It isn't realistic. We have 20% of NZ passport holders living overseas at any given time. The idea that we'd disregard airline capacity, quarantine capacity and put the whole country at risk because they couldn't be effectively isolated just to the benefit of New Zealanders overseas is why some people get so hostile when it comes to expats.


 
 
 
 


shk292
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  #2565818 16-Sep-2020 12:24
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tdgeek:

 

I doubt you could as your current resident status as per your example would be the UK, so you would be stuck there. If you argued based on NZ Citizenship, well you are already safe and secure in a country that you are a citizen of. As distinct from being in Estonia for example at the moment and need to get home

 

 

That's not how I understand the current situation - ie if you currently have NZ citizenship or permanent residency you can move to NZ, regardless of where your actual residence is.  Happy to be corrected but from the news stories I've seen about people relocating back to NZ after 10+ years overseas, I think it's a wide open border at present


tdgeek
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  #2565866 16-Sep-2020 12:32
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shk292:

 

That's not how I understand the current situation - ie if you currently have NZ citizenship or permanent residency you can move to NZ, regardless of where your actual residence is.  Happy to be corrected but from the news stories I've seen about people relocating back to NZ after 10+ years overseas, I think it's a wide open border at present

 

 

I do recall someone i power saying "usual residence" or words to that effect, which I took to be dual citizenship holders. If you are a citizen in two countries and live overseas in the other as your usual residence, that seems fair not to allow those, if thats the case.

 

Wide open border? Don't think so. Yes, there are exceptions, but do we want to Level 4 NZ indefinitely or do we want to minomise the overall damage as much as we can?


shk292
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  #2565867 16-Sep-2020 12:39
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tdgeek:

 

I do recall someone i power saying "usual residence" or words to that effect, which I took to be dual citizenship holders. If you are a citizen in two countries and live overseas in the other as your usual residence, that seems fair not to allow those, if thats the case.

 

Wide open border? Don't think so. Yes, there are exceptions, but do we want to Level 4 NZ indefinitely or do we want to minomise the overall damage as much as we can?

 

 

I'm pretty sure there is currently no restriction based on place of residency - if you have an NZ passport or permanent resident visa, you can book a flight and come to NZ.  That's what I mean by open border, and I'm not convinced it's appropriate just now.


vexxxboy
3312 posts

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  #2565868 16-Sep-2020 12:41
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GV27:

 

 

 

There is clearly practical limits to this - when flights are grounded due to weather or other events, it's not considered a breach of human rights. We are already restricting flights as we have capacity constraints in quarantine, and charging for airline tickets isn't considered this a breach either - even though it could be argued they're an obstacle for Kiwis coming home as well. Again, not considered a massive breach of human rights. 

 

It's not something that has been tested in a global pandemic/economic downturn of this scale, and guess what? It isn't realistic. We have 20% of NZ passport holders living overseas at any given time. The idea that we'd disregard airline capacity, quarantine capacity and put the whole country at risk because they couldn't be effectively isolated just to the benefit of New Zealanders overseas is why some people get so hostile when it comes to expats.

 

 

the problem is  that you are putting more importance on the fact that because you live in the country you should have more rights , it doesn't work like that .If you have a NZ passport then you have the rights that the passport gives you no matter where you live and that includes the right to enter NZ at any time.





Common sense is not as common as you think.


tdgeek
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  #2565874 16-Sep-2020 12:49
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shk292:

 

I'm pretty sure there is currently no restriction based on place of residency - if you have an NZ passport or permanent resident visa, you can book a flight and come to NZ.  That's what I mean by open border, and I'm not convinced it's appropriate just now.

 

 

Ok, well in that case, yes its an open border to Kiwis, as it always has been. Rightfully so IMHO


Hammerer
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  #2565880 16-Sep-2020 13:03
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shk292:

 

I'm pretty sure there is currently no restriction based on place of residency - if you have an NZ passport or permanent resident visa, you can book a flight and come to NZ.  That's what I mean by open border, and I'm not convinced it's appropriate just now.

 

 

The problem with calling the current situation an "open border" is that the term already has a historical and well-defined meaning which is very different. It usually means that a country cannot or will not exert any control over their border.

 

Instead we have some sort of controlled border with inflows limited by NZ quotas on the number of airline seats/flights. Many New Zealand passport holders are unable to book flights to NZ at a price they can afford. And even if they can afford it they may have to wait a month or more to get a seat to NZ.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_border

 

An open border is a border that enables free movement of people (and often of goods) between jurisdictions with few or no restrictions on movement, that is lacking substantive border control.

 


GV27
2348 posts

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  #2565948 16-Sep-2020 13:21
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vexxxboy:

 

the problem is  that you are putting more importance on the fact that because you live in the country you should have more rights , it doesn't work like that .If you have a NZ passport then you have the rights that the passport gives you no matter where you live and that includes the right to enter NZ at any time.

 

 

No, I'm saying because people live overseas doesn't mean their right to return transcends all rational and logistical concerns. 

 

As pointed out, we accept when flights are cancelled due to weather, industrial action and so on. It's a lofty ideal, but clearly subjected to practical constraints.

 

A global pandemic and quarantine/carrier capacity constraints, for example, is an example of a practical constraint in the face of a huge international crisis.


Scott3
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  #2565951 16-Sep-2020 13:27
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While it is quite possible for the government to pass a law change to stop certain NZ citizens returning, doing so would in in massive breach of international immigration norms.

 

Logically people that normally live in NZ should have higher priory to return than those who don't, but in reality citizenship is far more valuable.

 

Should note that the NZ government has been effectively citizens ability to return via placing caps on fortnightly arrivals for airlines, and denying some charter flights landing approval. This caused strife for a lot of returnees for a while, but the situation regarding seat availability to NZ is rumored to have improved lately.

 

tdgeek:

 

I doubt you could as your current resident status as per your example would be the UK, so you would be stuck there. If you argued based on NZ Citizenship, well you are already safe and secure in a country that you are a citizen of. As distinct from being in Estonia for example at the moment and need to get home

 

 

New Zealand Citizen or permanent residents, are entitled to pass through the NZ border restrictions without first requesting to travel. Along with a few outer countries.

 

https://www.immigration.govt.nz/about-us/covid-19/border-closures-and-exceptions

 

 

 

When you talk of current resident status, this isn't really a principal in immigration.

 

Tax Resident would be the closest match, but that is really just to decide where you pay income tax, not which countries you can enter.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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