Urgent food warning and advice requested

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#2413463 6-Feb-2020 10:21

My main concern with this event is that most people in New Zealand are remarkably ignorant about food safety. This is a text-book example of such risky behaviour.

I totally agree that a manufacturing date should be mandatory on all canned food products. That should also be the case for all other manufactured food products. But that is not the primary issue here.

The cans were stored in an unsafe manner and the existence of a printed date on the can would probably have made no difference because of risky behaviours that are common to most of us:

* Ignoring or at least not detecting the visible signs of potential problems with the cans.

Rikkitic:

I inspected (from a safe distance) some unexploded cans and they are bulging noticeably.

Even two year old cans will already show visible signs of aging: dull/tarnished/oxidised metal (including rust), dust, fading labels, failing labels (i.e. they fall off as the adhesives fail). It is also likely that the pressure in the cans had been visible for several months. Dents and other deformation of cans usually reduces the shelf life markedly even if the can has not been pierced.

* Storing the cans at a temperatures outside the safe range.

Rikkitic:

We live in an old farmhouse without air-conditioning and it has been very warm in this weather, but nothing that should be causing this kind of effect. The temperature in the cupboard may be around the mid-thirties, but no higher than that.

Totally untrue that there is "nothing that should causing this kind of effect"

Most of us don't understand the term "room temperature" which means what is comfortable for us - typically means at least 20C and no more than 23-25C.

In general, we are more aware of the probability of food poisoning and death when we have a short period at high risk long period, e.g. handling raw chicken, thawing frozen food, storing cooked rice. We are much more ignorant of issues with long term storage that have the same probability of harming us. So we should not be relying on the fact that some few cans out of many millions will be fine after 10 years. Cans fail in a similar distribution to many other products, probably much like incandescant lightbulbs. Some will virtually last forever.

The traditional practice of ventilating food storage areas has largely ceased. It was mainly used for primary foods (dairy, eggs, meat, fresh fruit and vegetables) rather than secondary foods (products) but it does help prevent temperature extremes in our kitchen cupboards.

The fact that more than one can exploded doesn't make the event more alarming. Coincidental explosions happens because of the shock wave created by earlier explosions and have been known to cause safe canned foods to rupture.

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#2413471 6-Feb-2020 10:45

Hammerer:

My main concern with this event is that most people in New Zealand are remarkably ignorant about food safety. This is a text-book example of such risky behaviour.

I totally agree that a manufacturing date should be mandatory on all canned food products. That should also be the case for all other manufactured food products. But that is not the primary issue here.

The cans were stored in an unsafe manner and the existence of a printed date on the can would probably have made no difference because of risky behaviours that are common to most of us:

* Ignoring or at least not detecting the visible signs of potential problems with the cans.

Rikkitic:

I inspected (from a safe distance) some unexploded cans and they are bulging noticeably.

Even two year old cans will already show visible signs of aging: dull/tarnished/oxidised metal (including rust), dust, fading labels, failing labels (i.e. they fall off as the adhesives fail). It is also likely that the pressure in the cans had been visible for several months. Dents and other deformation of cans usually reduces the shelf life markedly even if the can has not been pierced.

* Storing the cans at a temperatures outside the safe range.

Rikkitic:

We live in an old farmhouse without air-conditioning and it has been very warm in this weather, but nothing that should be causing this kind of effect. The temperature in the cupboard may be around the mid-thirties, but no higher than that.

Totally untrue that there is "nothing that should causing this kind of effect"

Most of us don't understand the term "room temperature" which means what is comfortable for us - typically means at least 20C and no more than 23-25C.

In general, we are more aware of the probability of food poisoning and death when we have a short period at high risk long period, e.g. handling raw chicken, thawing frozen food, storing cooked rice. We are much more ignorant of issues with long term storage that have the same probability of harming us. So we should not be relying on the fact that some few cans out of many millions will be fine after 10 years. Cans fail in a similar distribution to many other products, probably much like incandescant lightbulbs. Some will virtually last forever.

The traditional practice of ventilating food storage areas has largely ceased. It was mainly used for primary foods (dairy, eggs, meat, fresh fruit and vegetables) rather than secondary foods (products) but it does help prevent temperature extremes in our kitchen cupboards.

The fact that more than one can exploded doesn't make the event more alarming. Coincidental explosions happens because of the shock wave created by earlier explosions and have been known to cause safe canned foods to rupture.

If the can was bulging that's the time bomb declaring itself in black and white. I was taught that from a young age but anyhow, should be common sense from science. Anyway, guys printed date or not, can bulging - don't keep it.

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#2413561 6-Feb-2020 11:09

Great points @hammerer

The issues around having dates on cans (or a hermetically sealed container if you want to be picky) is that they're not a good indication of the quality of the food. Putting something in a can should produce something that's sterile and free of any organisms when the product is stored at a recommended (ie room) temperature. Storage conditions of the product are the key and will ultimately determine how long the product lasts.

For this reason putting a best before date on most canned food isn't realistic - we know you need to keep milk in the fridge and that it should keep until the best before date at this temperature, but in the case of cans the presence of a date can simply create confusion particularly in low acid products were the risk of the food being spoiled is lower. A can of baked beans could easily keep and be deemed safe after 5 years but if that same product was kept at a high heat there is a chance that product could easily deteriorate well before that date if you were to put a best before date of 5 years on it.

Tomatoes in particular are an exception as the high acid content creates problems, so most will have a best before date on them which will be under the 2 year rule. Cans were traditionally lined with BPA which was a big help for high acidity foods such as tomatoes but the problem now is BPA is considered evil.

For pretty much everything else there is nothing to suggest that date stamping would benefit public health or safety, so the status quo rule applies. Most manufacturers only stamp with a identifying batch code, but some do use packed on dates. There was a lot of discussion around this at meetings I went to probably 15 years ago now.

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#2413567 6-Feb-2020 11:17

I think you are making some unfounded assumptions, but a lot of people on this thread seem to be doing that.

First, there were no obvious signs of deterioration on any of the cans. They were not rusted or corroded or visibly weakened around the seals. The bulging is noticeable, but only when the cans are removed from the cupboard and closely inspected. In the cupboard amongst the other ones, it is not that apparent.

The cans were stored in a completely normal way, in a cupboard with all the other cans. This is how everyone in the country does it. I don't know how it would be done differently.

Most New Zealand homes do not have air-conditioning. Our old farmhouse also does not have insulation. This is also not all that remarkable for a rural home. Indoor temperatures have been higher than normal during the recent heat wave, but they haven't been that exceptional. The temperature in the cupboard would have been about the same as in the kitchen, around 35 degrees at the hottest. The kitchen is in fact ventilated in this warm weather but the outdoor air was even hotter in the afternoons. The kitchen was one of the cooler parts of the house. I don't store unopened cans in the refrigerator and I doubt anyone else does, either. If you are trying to maintain that a properly manufactured can should be expected to explode in an ambient temperature of 35 degrees, I respectfully disagree.

At least one of the cans appears to be 10 years old. I assume the others probably are as well, but I don't know that for certain. Different people stay here at different times and someone else must have bought those beans. I remember glancing at them in the past as I went through the cupboard, but because I am a vegetarian I always put them back on the principle that whoever did buy them might want them. I had no way of knowing if the cans were even the same ones. Someone might have eaten and replaced them. Like I say, a lot of assumptions are being made here. If there had been date information on them, I would have seen it because I do read labels and if I had seen their age I would have disposed of them.

What strikes me about this thread is the manner in which some posters here try to make this somehow my fault. The reason I started this thread was to warn others of a possible danger. At the time I did not know the exploding cans were so old, and as I have explained, there were also other similar cans that I knew I had recently purchased, and this caused me to think that the exploding cans were also of recent date. If that had been true, they would have represented a manufacturing fault that could have endangered others. That is why I posted my warning.

I guess I can be blamed for not marking every can since the manufacturers can't be bothered. I do go through the cupboard regularly but I guess I must have left those particular cans longer than I thought or than I should have for the reason mentioned above. I shouldn't have to explain myself to anyone over something like this, but I am a little irritated at some of the insinuations that have been made here. I thought I had encountered something dangerous and I posted a warning about it. Then I pointed out that potentially dangerous situations like this might be easily prevented by putting date information on all cans. That was all and I have no idea why this thread has gone the direction it has. I guess some people are just very eager to put the knife in.

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#2413570 6-Feb-2020 11:24

Batman:

If the can was bulging that's the time bomb declaring itself in black and white. I was taught that from a young age but anyhow, should be common sense from science. Anyway, guys printed date or not, can bulging - don't keep it.

If you are seriously suggesting I am so stupid to not recognise the significance of a bulging can, then an apology might be in order. Of course I know better than that. The cans were not bulging the last time I looked at them. This time they were.

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#2413634 6-Feb-2020 12:11

If a can can have a gas buildup inside them to the point that they explode like the OP described, then they are clearly unsafe. Why is there not a weak spot designed to let go when they overpressure like gas cannisters have in them to stop them exploding?

I have only ever had 2 cans let go, and they were both canned fruits that were bought with good intentions and never used for about 3 years, they rusted out from the inside and then let out a jet of gross gone off fruit residue over everything else in the cupboard, ruining that too. Since then I do a throw out of all cans once a year that I havent used to avoid it in futue. Or use them all up and run everything in that cupboard out before restocking it. And then try to avoid buying so much stuff that is a pain to prepare in future.

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#2413636 6-Feb-2020 12:22

My point is that risky behaviour is normal in NZ but that doesn't mean it should be an acceptable argument for continuing such behaviour.

I specifically focused on our collective behaviour but that isn't a justification for what has happened in your case.

Nowadays the improvements in manufacturing have reduced a lot of the risks but they still remain. We have become complacent and ignorant of the real risks because we see so few people affected by food poisoning. People took more care back when your life depended on it in the pre-antibiotic era with none of our intensive-care solutions.

Rikkitic:

First, there were no obvious signs of deterioration on any of the cans. They were not rusted or corroded or visibly weakened around the seals. The bulging is noticeable, but only when the cans are removed from the cupboard and closely inspected. In the cupboard amongst the other ones, it is not that apparent.

Tarnishing is visible on cans in supermarkets so it is likely that the metal had started to tarnish.

As an aside, I would have expected that closely inspecting that bulging can is not something that you would now do.

Rikkitic:

If you are trying to maintain that a properly manufactured can should be expected to explode in an ambient temperature of 35 degrees, I respectfully disagree.

It is absurd to suggest that. 35C doesn't immediately turn canned food a bomb but it certainly accelerates that hazard and makes it a much more significant risk factor.

Rikkitic:

The cans were stored in a completely normal way, in a cupboard with all the other cans. This is how everyone in the country does it. I don't know how it would be done differently.

Everyone does not do that. Even if they did, are you saying that is a justification for perpetuating risky and dangerous behaviours.

While my short-term tinned food storage is up in the kitchen cupboards, we regularly (when we add a lot of new cans about once a month) re-sort all the cans to check them and rotate old ones to the front. We do a similar check with fresh foods in the fridge and frozen foods in the freezer.

Our long-term canned food storage is at floor level in the coolest part of the house. That's where we keep our disaster recovery cache and also our bottled water: a cool, dark place as close to a like a root cellar as we can get.

I still remember growing up in the 1960-70's when we bought fruit in crates from the orchards and stored these crates in a cool dark place for periods up to three months without refrigeration. We bottled fruit and vegetables and were always careful to check for any sign of deterioration: discoloration, growths, gas, leaking, bulging bottle caps, broken caps, rusting lids, damaged enameling on the lids, etc.. After the first few days, any doubt meant throw it out. The same for cans we buy.

Incidentally, an increasing risk nowadays is storing bottled food in a refrigerator beyond the recommended period which is usually 3-10 days. There appears to be increasing problems with foods stored in water or oil e.g. sun-dried tomatoes and other vegetables stored in oil. People think because it's not meat or dairy and because it is submerged in liquid that they can ignore the storage guidelines on the label. But it is much riskier than they think because botulism normally develops in such airless places.

The presence of acidity and sugar is somewhat protective but it doesn't remove the risk of food poisoning. A common example is tomato sauce which people often don't refrigerate even if it is recommended to do so. It tends to go mouldy first because mould likes acidity and sweetness so that acts as an early warning system and probably prevents worse outcomes.

Rikkitic:

What strikes me about this thread is the manner in which some posters here try to make this somehow my fault.

Unsafe practices led to unsafe outcome. This was entirely preventable by you.

You can always blame someone else in the house. Oh, that's right you did. Is that taking responsibility for your actions?

Rikkitic:

Different people stay here at different times and someone else must have bought those beans. I remember glancing at them in the past as I went through the cupboard, but because I am a vegetarian I always put them back on the principle that whoever did buy them might want them. I had no way of knowing if the cans were even the same ones. Someone might have eaten and replaced them.

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#2413648 6-Feb-2020 12:58

Hammerer:

Unsafe practices led to unsafe outcome. This was entirely preventable by you.

You can always blame someone else in the house. Oh, that's right you did. Is that taking responsibility for your actions?

You are out of line. I was trying to explain how this situation could come about. If the cans simply had dates on them I could have easily seen that they hadn't been used. In this case I had no way of knowing if they had been replaced.

Can a mod please lock this thread? I am sick and tired of having to defend myself for trying to do the right thing.

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#2413652 6-Feb-2020 13:06

Calling sticking food into a cupboard in a kitchen unsafe is IMO absurd. That's what the stuff is sold for. If it has a will detonate by date or something that should be advised on the can with a clear safety warning.

The product was defective to do this and needs something looked into as to what happened, it may be a manufacturing fault or whatever.

Flyspray and spraypaint has a legitimate expectation for explosion problems because its under pressure and I have cans of those going back 20 years without problems.

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#2413653 6-Feb-2020 13:08

sbiddle:

For this reason putting a best before date on most canned food isn't realistic

I thought the general suggestion here was to put the manufacturing date on the cans, not necessarily a best before date?

I personally had to do a decent amount of research to gain knowledge about food safety with respect to canned foods. There's no helpful information printed on most cans, there's no estimated best before date on many, it wasn't taught in Home Ec when I was at school (late 90s and 00s) - I remember specifically being told that canned food will last "in your pantry for many years", and information isn't available on most manufacturer websites other than a very vague statement e.g. "At least 2 years". I just spent the last 5 minutes scouring watties.co.nz, and it appears to offer zero information to consumers about the storage and safety of their canned foods.

I usually write the year and month that I purchased them, but it's difficult to enforce this for everyone in the house who might buy cans, and I don't know how long the can has been sitting on the shelf at the store I purchased it from - it could be halfway through its "2+ years" shelf life already. I think manufacturing date should absolutely be a required stamp on every single can sold. Looking in my can drawer, there are a couple of cans in there that I have zero idea of the age of. They could be 3 years old, they could be 1 month old. It's literally impossible to tell by looking at them. I'll try to use them first, of course, but for many consumers who don't write on their cans - they might end up inadvertently never using the old can - and quite a few of the labels on these cans haven't been changed in design for at least 5 years, so that can't even be used as an indicator.

Reading the Govt's website here: https://www.foodstandards.govt.nz/consumer/safety/cannedfoods/Pages/default.aspx offers little in the way of useful concrete information to uninformed consumers. For example - what is "room temperature?".

Then there's the question of whether a pull tab will reduce the life of the can. Other posts here seem to indicate this is the case - but I've never seen this written anywhere for general consumers to be informed, and my cans with pull tabs don't seem to have any distinguishing information on them about their shelf life.

In terms of the guidelines around metal rusting and tarnishing - these are very unreliable indicators, because quite often these can be present from the day you buy them. A tiny rust spot on the bottom edge of a can, for example, is not an indicator that the contents are spoiled. Tarnishing around the edges of the can might simply be caused by them rubbing next to eachother, depending on how you store them. The finish on cans these days also seems to last for many, many years before any obvious signs of tarnishing occur. As the OP stated, the cans at a glance offered no signs.

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#2413654 6-Feb-2020 13:10

when does personal responsibility come into this?

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#2413655 6-Feb-2020 13:18

@freitasm: Please lock this thread.

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#3021727 15-Jan-2023 21:24

Hammerer:
When stored in a cool, dry place, canned foods retain their taste, goodness and nutritional value for two to three years.

This could also go in the Annoy thread but this one seems more appropriate: Just found out about this nonsensical "helpful" advice from Watties today while digging a can of their chopped tomatoes from the back of the cupboard, there's no date on it and even if I had written down the purchase date I'd have no idea how long it's been sitting in a warehouse somewhere before I got it. So this advice essentially translates to "it could be good for a week, a month, a year, who knows. Give it a go and see if you get sick". They may as well just say "our canned products are OK right up until they're not".

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#3021728 15-Jan-2023 21:30

timmmay:
A date on a can would be really helpful. We do go through and throw old cans out occasionally, or even just to check it before you open it.

Yup. Helped some elderly neighbours clear out some cupboards a few months ago and they ended up throwing out a whole pile of cans with absolutely no indication of any date on them because they didn't know whether they were still OK or not.

I guess it makes great business sense for Watties to withhold this information since it forces people to buy replacement cans they probably don't need.

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#3021730 15-Jan-2023 21:38

This could also go in the Annoy thread but this one seems more appropriate: Just found out about this nonsensical "helpful" advice from Watties today while digging a can of their chopped tomatoes from the back of the cupboard, there's no date on it and even if I had written down the purchase date I'd have no idea how long it's been sitting in a warehouse somewhere before I got it. So this advice essentially translates to "it could be good for a week, a month, a year, who knows. Give it a go and see if you get sick". They may as well just say "our canned products are OK right up until they're not".

Whilst it's conceivable the content of a sealed can could make you sick without you knowing about it, I've never seen an instance of it in real life. Every tin I've opened that has been questionable, the tin itself, or the content has been quite obviously questionable either by appearance, smell or worst possible case, taste. I've opened tins with fruit in it, that smelt acidic, or had bubbles in it, I know aren't supposed to be there, or the smell isn't 'right'. In doubt, I might put a tiny bit in my mouth, but if I am not 99.999% sure it's OK, it's binned. There is no tin of food I could imagine being worth getting the kind of sick you get from these types of illnesses.

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