Sam Morgan's Covid Card

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#2536475 7-Aug-2020 21:32

SomeoneSomewhere:

Civil liberties are also important. It's one thing to require a mask, it's another to require people to carry a remotely readable ID badge. Does the system make it impossible to sniff a card's ID? I can't see how it could when every other card has to read it and store it, barring some very fancy encryption.

I would not be surprised to see kit that tracks these in the same way bluetooth and WLAN MAC addresses get tracked.

If so, I can picture the situation where a supermarket (or any store) might install trackers all over the store so they know where you are and how you travel. Although you could probably already do similar things with camera tracking.

xlinknz

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#2536477 7-Aug-2020 21:38

freitasm:

xlinknz:

Note Sam Morgan raised an interesting point which is he believes his system would allow open borders to open and therefore the $100m spent by the taxpayer (you and I) is a small sum compared to the value of borders opening and or possible future lock downs. My take on that is that his approach is predicated on restoring economic value by being able to successfully trace and manage community infection.

The question I would have for him is if Victoria had his system how many deaths would have been prevented if any?

Jesus. " he believes his system would allow open borders to open and therefore the $100m spent by the taxpayer (you and I) is a small sum compared to the value of borders opening and or possible future lock downs."

Yes, open the borders, this Bluetooth Tile-like card will protect your body like those anti-5G tinfoil devices.

Reality is these can be used for contact tracing but won't prevent you or I getting sick if in contact with someone. So that "small sum" will end up being quite a few people in hospital, possibly overload of beds and deaths. But hey, "is a small sum compared to the value of borders opening" and all the money people will make of that (and the cards).

It was my interpretation of what he said, if he didn't say that explicitly he was certainly trying to justify the cost against the economic value of it allowing borders to open. Have a listen

Yes it seems to the value proposition of this falls into the cure is worse than the disease argument...

If he believes in this approach so much why doesn't he put his own money where his mouth is rather than the taxpayer

sbiddle

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#2536562 8-Aug-2020 09:53

SomeoneSomewhere:

I would not be surprised to see kit that tracks these in the same way bluetooth and WLAN MAC addresses get tracked.

Except most smart retailers have all given up on this idea because it became totally pointless once Apple and Google started randomising MAC addresses.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2536629 8-Aug-2020 12:14

Apple and Google started randomising MACs because retailers were doing this. If they could start again I'm sure they would.

ezbee

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#2536705 8-Aug-2020 14:29

As far as opening up border, in the way some assume.
Not sure how much public will be up for freely allowing x% covid infected into the country on basis that ambulance can chase you up afterwards.

Mine is the Ambulance that is always at the bottom of the right cliff.

Edit: I type, therefore I typo.

antonknee

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#2536863 9-Aug-2020 00:44

pom532:
SomeoneSomewhere:

Civil liberties are also important. It's one thing to require a mask, it's another to require people to carry a remotely readable ID badge. Does the system make it impossible to sniff a card's ID? I can't see how it could when every other card has to read it and store it, barring some very fancy encryption.

I would not be surprised to see kit that tracks these in the same way bluetooth and WLAN MAC addresses get tracked.

If so, I can picture the situation where a supermarket (or any store) might install trackers all over the store so they know where you are and how you travel. Although you could probably already do similar things with camera tracking.

You certainly can, and I know of a few stores doing it (but not at scale).

MurrayM

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#2537676 10-Aug-2020 10:13

As I've said in other threads, a bluetooth card doesn't solve the problem of transmission via surfaces, it only helps track who you've physically been near.

To recap: Tracking via bluetooth wouldn't help you in the situation where an infected person visits a cafe and sneezes all over a table and then leaves, and I come along 5 minutes later and sit at the same table and pick the virus up from the table surface. Since the infected person and I were never in the same area at the same time a bluetooth card wouldn't have exchanged anything. When the infected person gets tested and diagnosed with the virus I won't be notified because his bluetooth card won't have talked to mine to exchange IDs. We know that the virus can survive on certain surfaces for up to several days, so surface infections are a very real threat.

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alasta

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#2537733 10-Aug-2020 10:45

MurrayM:

As I've said in other threads, a bluetooth card doesn't solve the problem of transmission via surfaces, it only helps track who you've physically been near.

To recap: Tracking via bluetooth wouldn't help you in the situation where an infected person visits a cafe and sneezes all over a table and then leaves, and I come along 5 minutes later and sit at the same table and pick the virus up from the table surface. Since the infected person and I were never in the same area at the same time a bluetooth card wouldn't have exchanged anything. When the infected person gets tested and diagnosed with the virus I won't be notified because his bluetooth card won't have talked to mine to exchange IDs. We know that the virus can survive on certain surfaces for up to several days, so surface infections are a very real threat.

You're quite right, but I don't think electronic contact tracing has ever been realistically expected to be a total solution. It is simply a tool to improve the efficiency of manual contact tracing, which would continue to deal with the types of situations that you have described.

1101

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#2537750 10-Aug-2020 10:59

pom532:

If so, I can picture the situation where a supermarket (or any store) might install trackers all over the store so they know where you are and how you travel.

This allready happens . They can (and do in the US) track you as you wander around Shopping centres via your ph .

sbiddle

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#2537774 10-Aug-2020 11:37

1101:

pom532:

If so, I can picture the situation where a supermarket (or any store) might install trackers all over the store so they know where you are and how you travel.

This allready happens . They can (and do in the US) track you as you wander around Shopping centres via your ph .

I'd be surprised if anybody was still doing this because location analysis is now pretty pointless since now since the data is poisoned by randomised MAC address.

A friend of mine in the US who worked for a big WiFi vendor who were pushing this did a number of deployments in the US in malls - until Apple and Google fundamentally broke it with randomised MAC address on background beacon scans. You could still track people who physically connected to the network, but iOS14 will break this even further (and potentially break a *lot* of things) with randomised MAC addresses that change even when connecting to the same network.

Most are now engaging with customers via apps to try and gain analytics from visits.

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#2537824 10-Aug-2020 12:13

Has anyone here looked at the app used in Ireland? It's one of the few apps using the tracing framework that Google and Apple collaborated on and appears to be one of the most successful contact tracing implementations around the world.

I realise it suffers from the same problems as other bluetooth and mobile solutions, but this appears to be the best overall solution and has good uptake, which is probably the most important metric. And the app has been open-sourced and donated to the Linux Foundation.

Some links:

COVID Tracker app

BBC: Contact tracing app 'working in Ireland'

Guardian: "Cheap, popular and it works: Ireland's contact-tracing app success"

Ireland donates the world’s most successful contact tracing app to the Linux Foundation

Github: https://github.com/covidgreen

gzt

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#2538327 10-Aug-2020 22:53

MurrayM: As I've said in other threads, a bluetooth card doesn't solve the problem of transmission via surfaces, it only helps track who you've physically been near.

This is incorrect in the case where a cafe has a card device and the infected person is a contact of that device. Any check in from the cafe device will show the relationship for that contact.

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#2538330 10-Aug-2020 23:22

xlinknz: Sam Morgan was on radionz again this morning here

I listened to Morgan's first part of the interview. He mentioned the card has an accelerometer.

MurrayM

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#2538366 11-Aug-2020 08:35

gzt:
MurrayM: As I've said in other threads, a bluetooth card doesn't solve the problem of transmission via surfaces, it only helps track who you've physically been near.

This is incorrect in the case where a cafe has a card device and the infected person is a contact of that device. Any check in from the cafe device will show the relationship for that contact.

And how many cafes (and all other retailers) are going to have their own cards? I haven't read anywhere that the intention is to hand out cards to retailers as well as the general public.

Another question: how many contacts can each card hold? I can imagine a busy retailer may see several thousand people enter and exit their store each day, and presumably they will want the card to hold 60 days or so.

ezbee

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#2538501 11-Aug-2020 10:52

Well apart from robot cafe.

As the staff at any business will be wearing their Covid-Pendants , they would effectively have a number of pendants at every business.

Though if you are making 5M plus pendants , having a few extra to cover businesses separately would be trivial extra quantity if you wanted to.

You would have to allow for people losing them and having their dog eat them etc anyway.

Hmm why do we call a pendant a card ?

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