Sleep problem, anyone had a similar problem?

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456 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3278682 4-Sep-2024 07:00

David321:

I struggle to choose between options for decisions I need to make, even ones that are not important at all, its like mild OCD. When I wake I find myself uncontrollably thinking about these decisions and the pro's and cons for each option.

My 2 cents and not a doctor, but your post is similar to myself.
Bio
Male, 36 years.

The "uncontrollably thinking about these decisions and the pro's and cons for each option" is the big telltale sign of struggling to get back to sleep and was exactly me a couple of years ago.

I had to make changes in my life, I can't say if they will work for you.

A water bottle by my bed and decrease the amount of water I drink an hour before bed.
Always using the bathroom before bed, even when I don't feel like it.
I started exercising in the evening or at night with a friend at the gym for about 60-90 minutes about 3 times a week.
I started keeping a food diary and watching my nutrition and macros, 667 continuous days so far... (I might have mild habit/ocd doing it).

The exercise helped me with being too physically tired to bother with "decisions and the pro's and cons", lifting heavy things (weights) and putting them down was really mentally relaxing for me.
The tracking nutrition has helped my body in ways I didn't expect, big one being pain management, I used to have a lot of back pain and aches all over.
Found I was lacking certain things in my diet i.e protein, I was crab heavy as, found I love protein, I am not a big meat eater but found I could get it from other sources.
My favourite go to is Musashi High Protein Bars (45 grams of protein).

What worked for me, might not work for you, but wanted to share as your post was pretty similar to struggles I have had.
Congrats on the family.

jm3

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#3278683 4-Sep-2024 07:03

Interesting topic thank you. I have similar issues falling back to sleep if woken. I'm a little bit older but never need the toliet in the night. I think my body just days 5-6hrs is enough once it's awake, I've started to just get up and do life admin. For the kids my wife encouraged me to wear ear plugs as their is no point in having two zombie parents. Please update us if the magnesium continues to help.

johno1234

2736 posts

Uber Geek

#3278686 4-Sep-2024 07:49

To throw in another anecdote: my 17yo’s problematic sleep habits almost completely resolved themselves soon after he discovered the gym. He loves the place and hits the weights 5 days a week. Instead of gaming late at night and being late to wake in the morning he’s now in a good sleep cycle.

All down to regular exercise.

gzt

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#3278852 4-Sep-2024 14:43

Similar problem. I improved it with many of the things above.

⚠️There were also two medical conditions I found along the way.

Some people are earlier or later with these and some not at all. 40's is kind of an average.

I would sometimes awake experiencing a kind of chest tightness which sounds very similar to mild anxiety or something like that and sort of feels like it. This was eventually diagnosed when the condition became worse when I experienced severe nausea and vomiting and a kind of pain after very high fat foods like the best ice cream. Also when eating some types of rice go figure. Emergency type consultation and investigation found gallbladder stones. Removal reduced that cause of waking in the night.

You guys peeing several times a night this next one is for you. Investigation found benign prostate hypertrophy (enlargement) which means the bladder remains close to full or fuller and the result is needing to pee more often. Diagnosis is a flow test peeing into a fancy apparatus which measures the long tail eg; flow can be good at the start, if it tapers off and you continue flowing at a reduced rate for x time then you get scope checked. In my case - BPH which is not associated with and shares no risk factors with cancer etc as far as is known. Medication to mitigate the condition reduced that cause of waking in the night.

Both these conditions caused minor sleep disruption for a number of years until becoming very obvious as conditions in their own eventually and coincidently diagnosed when I took some time to focus on personal health.

Either of those symptoms can indicate a far more serious condition!! so get checked.

kotuku4

483 posts

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#3279297 5-Sep-2024 14:57

I find magnesium not that helpful. Have spent plenty on various herbal options.

Searching non prescription sleeping pills suggested there is little evidence any of them work, except those containing antihistamines. Perhaps I will try that path.

spacedog

482 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3279356 5-Sep-2024 18:04

@David321 - Life long Middle-of-the-night-Insomnia sufferer reporting in. It kicked in for me in my teens.

Lots of good suggestions and feedback in this thread and you will likely need to try a variety of them and may find that they work, or don't work, in some combination.

I have a standing prescription for Zopiclone as a 'rescue' medicine when it gets really really bad and all it takes is 1/2 of a tab to get me back to sleep. But it is habit forming in the sense that you can become dependent on it and require higher and higher doses for it become effective. To put it in perspective it takes me over a year to go through script of it...so again...you really have to exercise some self-control.

Also very low doses of THC+CBD can be quite helpful and now that we have medicinal cannabis options, this is fantastic for me and I rely more on that, than zopiclone.

Question:

I presume you are suffering from the 'racing thoughts' problem once you are awake? Once you get into this pattern, and the anxiety associated with it, it can become a vicious cycle.

First things first, you are not alone...and yes it sucks.

Second, if you haven't met with your GP, this is a good start. Ideally a 100% blood work up and also checking testosterone levels is worth doing. I did all of this and luckily my health is nearly perfect in this regard. Unluckily, it didn't give me a simple answer solution to my sleep woes.

Once you have eliminated any health factors issues, then it's lifestyle/behavior choices. Watch out for daytime or evening napping before going to bed. More exercise, less caffeine/alcohol and avoiding your phone/screens for an hour before going to bed, etc...etc...etc...

In my case, I had to do a number of things. Namely ensuring bedroom temperature is correct (always better to be cool - they say as low as 17c, but I find that too chilly. 19c seems to be the sweet spot for me), it's quiet and then blackout curtains are a godsend.

The only consistent and lasting solution is using Serial Diverse Imaging techniques, apps and podcasts. I stumbled onto the cognitive research done on this issue while reading reddit and it steered me to the research behind nighttime mentation and how doing the 'cognitive shuffle' can break up this kind of linear thinking and help you fall back asleep. This was an epiphany for me and is the prime driver of my mid-night insomnia.

Someone actually built an app to do this cognitive shuffle called My Sleep Button

The research is based on this:
https://summit.sfu.ca/item/12143

The app, and their website, has a lot of great reading on this topic:
https://mysleepbutton.com/support/the-cognitive-science/
https://mysleepbutton.com/support/do-it-yourself-cognitive-shuffle-sdi/

The gist of this app and technique is simple: You hear a random word, visualize it, then a new random word is issued and you focus on that, and so on.

The first time I used it, it was mind-blowingly effective. The problem is that I started developing a resistance to it and after awhile it became less effective. This did lead me to sleep podcasts which all are taking the same approach. Get Sleepy and Sleep With Me are the two I now rely on the most. The issue is you might need to find a very comfortable wireless earbud you can sleep with so you can listen to the cognitive shuffle app or the sleep podcast of your choice without disturbing your partner.

A final technique that also helps are Mack's silicone earplugs for swimmers - much more comfortable than the foam earplugs and I find that it enhances the sound of my own breathing and sometimes that is enough to help me fall asleep.

I feel for you...it sucks. What's worked for me is have a toolbox of tricks and resources....and sometimes...you still just have a lousy night.

johno1234

2736 posts

Uber Geek

#3279366 5-Sep-2024 19:55

Anyone tried melatonin?

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

Gurezaemon

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#3279372 5-Sep-2024 20:02

johno1234: Anyone tried melatonin?

I've found melatonin more useful in getting to sleep in the first place - my understanding of it is that it doesn't last that long in the body, so it might not be that effective for waking up in the middle of the night.

Get your business seen overseas - Nexus Translations

spacedog

482 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3279403 5-Sep-2024 22:37

johno1234: Anyone tried melatonin?

Yes. Works great for some people, but others have a reaction where it causes extremely vivid/lucid dreams...to the point where it can be unpleasant. I fall into this camp so don't use it.

martyyn

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#3279486 6-Sep-2024 09:47

I had a great piece of advice from a psychologist many years ago in how to deal with racing thoughts, especially during the night.

He suggested getting up and writing it all out and I've been doing it for 20+ years.

When I was struggling with work I'd write pseudo code. When struggling with life I'd write the issues out, what I was thinking about them, pros, cons, how I might going about fixing it.

His advice was to do with a horrible situation I had at work. He said "write to your boss. Tell him everything. You can just throw it away in the morning".

halper86

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#3280528 9-Sep-2024 18:42

20 Year old Male here, Shift worker at an Aluminium smelter.

My job is very physically active, I find most of my sleep problems were on the night before the start of my work week, I put that down to not being very active on my days off.

Someone alluded to their 17 y/o son noticing an improvement in sleep after attending a gym.

I find I sleep the best after I’ve been active most of the day, and when it comes to my last day off - being the least active - that night seems to be the worst, laying awake restless not really feeling tired.

I’ve made sure to go for a walk or do something physical on that day and I can say it does make a real difference to my sleep quality.

Now I’m regularly waking up minutes before my alarm, albeit groggy some days but that does not last longer than an hour. OP you have no harm in trying a walk or something more vigorous during the day if you are usually sedentary. A quick google says not to exercise too close to bedtime as it releases hormones in your body that keep you awake.

My 2 cents.

networkn

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#3280536 9-Sep-2024 20:23

martyyn: I had a great piece of advice from a psychologist many years ago in how to deal with racing thoughts, especially during the night.

He suggested getting up and writing it all out and I've been doing it for 20+ years.

When I was struggling with work I'd write pseudo code. When struggling with life I'd write the issues out, what I was thinking about them, pros, cons, how I might going about fixing it.

His advice was to do with a horrible situation I had at work. He said "write to your boss. Tell him everything. You can just throw it away in the morning".

Agree with all of these steps. Briliant not just for sleep, but in general.

tweake

2348 posts

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#3280541 9-Sep-2024 21:26

David321:

My diet before bed, im not a healthy eater by any means, but not so bad as takeaways every night though, more like once per week. My diet is typically high carb, but I eat hours before bed. I also do not drink anything but water after dinner usually.

something small and somewhat counterintuitive you can do. drink more, a whole lot more water. drink a hell of a lot of water for a few weeks then cut back. it will take a while to work.

it sounds utterly stupid and pointless but it has some science behind it and it can fix a couple of issues you may not be aware of.

eracode

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#3286964 27-Sep-2024 11:41

@David321 Just saw this on CNet.

Then this.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

K8Toledo

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#3286992 27-Sep-2024 13:03

David321:

Hi all,

Before I see a doctor I wanted to check on here if anyone has had the same issue and found something that has helped them?

Its to do with sleep, and if its relevant, I'm male, and 36 years old, usually in bed just before 9pm and alarm goes off at 5.10am which would give me 8 hours sleep if I sleep start to finish (doesn't happen).

I know there are many different types of sleeping pills, but I have heard so many of them cause dependence? I am not to keen on getting dependent on meds to sleep.

Benzodiazepines (Benzos) such as Temazepam or Diazepam can cause dependence, however there are other non-Benzodiazepine meds available.

Someone mentioned taking Zopiclone (an antihstamine I believe?); I have a standing script for Quetiapine and used it for years without issue (other than rebound insomnia if not taken, which for me lasts ~6 days).

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