Auckland Transport: Hop & Snapper. Whats the real issue

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Auckland Transport: Hop & Snapper. Whats the real issue

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#674846 20-Aug-2012 22:27

sbiddle:Thales card solution is MIFARE Desfire whereas Snapper use JCOP on all new cards.

Is one better than the other?

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insane

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#674865 20-Aug-2012 23:23

ajobbins:
sbiddle:Thales card solution is MIFARE Desfire whereas Snapper use JCOP on all new cards.

Is one better than the other?

Sometimes it's not which one is technically better, but which one delivers the required results.

I don't think consumers are all too bothered which name is on the card so long as the system is universal and works.

Based on the fact that there is significant $$ to be gained by holding credit in a bank account, I can see this battle being fought long and hard.

To the person who said that the NZTA should run the system.... please use the Northern Gateway Toll road a few times and then let us know if you still feel that way afterwards :)

nigelj

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#674886 21-Aug-2012 01:12

Replying to a couple of points,

sbiddle: No buses other than those with Snapper now have any hardware installed yet. Why is nobody in the media asking why?

I don't recall seeing Hop systems on NZ Bus buses until the system was practically launched. Doesn't mean that Ritchies/H&E/etc don't have systems stashed away somewhere in testing.

Dratsab: Interesting given that 2degrees have thrown a lot of effort into intergrating snapper into their NFC enabled phones:
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=85&topicid=101029
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=85&topicid=101567

I'm guessing they're feeling a little disappointed at the way events are unfolding at the moment.

Why should they? It was a known fact when 2degrees launched that Snapper was not the end solution for Auckland public transport. Snapper has always read as the "The Government made us do this as an interim" deal, and has always been a second class citizen, Brian Rudman's NZ Herald column has been spot on the money on the mistakes of doing this. In addition, Auckland Transport made the quite large mistake of even after NZ Bus apparently said "We will never integrate" of lending the future brand and their logos to give credability to the interim solution.

Brisbane's MiFare Classic based Go Card system is (in my personal opinion) far superior to Snapper (including next to real-time data, online top-up then tagging onto a bus 5-10 minutes later would often show updated balance).

The problem will be if Auckland Transport launches Hop 2.0 (unless they are also going to change the name from Hop after this fiasco) without NZ Bus on board, what is going to happen to the many people that will want a Snapper-Hop card and a Thales-Hop card.

Lastly, I see micro-payments/in-store transactions as a small-fries/moot point, by ~2016 pretty much everyone between the ages of 16 and ~40-50 are likely (in my opinion) to have at least one Paywave or Paypass style card (Visa Debit/Mastercard Debit, Credit Card etc), having used the Paypass stuff in Australia a couple of times now, it seem natural and (Westpac, are you listening?) something I'd love to start doing now.

I don't see Snapper surviving in that market for very long with the potential one in nearly every adult wallet reach of the banks & Mastercard/Visa (unless Snapper target that feature at Children, but do Child cards have in-store micropayments enabled?).

sbiddle

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#674908 21-Aug-2012 06:25

nigelj: Replying to a couple of points,

sbiddle: No buses other than those with Snapper now have any hardware installed yet. Why is nobody in the media asking why?

I don't recall seeing Hop systems on NZ Bus buses until the system was practically launched. Doesn't mean that Ritchies/H&E/etc don't have systems stashed away somewhere in testing.

My point is more than AT and Thales are saying "Our system is all complete and ready to go, Snapper are holding us up", when in reality as of a few weeks ago the terminals for these other buses hadn't been even been ordered due to the supplier encountering some of the same issues that Snapper have in making their hardware and software fully compatible.

Which ever way you look at it the project is a farce, and even if Snapper wasn't involved it would still be. Without having all bus operators on board the whole concept of an integrated ticketing solution is just a joke.

The way the system works is also going to be fun to watch. With train exit barriers only at Britomart and an honesty system elsewhere and no plans for heavy handed enforcement (such as Melbourne) it'll be interesting to see what happens with ticket revenue.

Behodar

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#674916 21-Aug-2012 07:51

eXDee: Ha, this makes me thankful that Hamilton has a single unified busit card system, despite some routes being operated by Pavlovich but most being GoBus.

Well, you're lucky there. Here in the BOP, the regional council has deals with a few different bus companies and has a single "BayBus" brand available in most towns here. Yet Tauranga and Rotorua use different cards, both called Smartride but incompatible. I think Whakatane uses the same cards as Tauranga but the website doesn't say one way or the other!

Kyanar

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#674948 21-Aug-2012 09:12

freitasm:Bollocks. From the link you posted:

"In a world first, Thales will be using its near-field communication (NFC) application throughout Auckland Transport’s final smart card ticketing system, HOP, before deploying it globally across all networks and banks."

Not in use in several cities at all, it seems. And Snapper *IS* working in Wellington.

Sorry, I misworded that - the "system" I refer to is the backend infrastructure, which will be the same as they've implemented elsewhere. The endpoints into the system are irrelevant - since apparently the system is intended to be designed so that other vendors can provide the hardware based on a specification.

Personally, based on the specs of the system that New HOP will provide and what Snapper provides now, I cannot wait for New HOP. Actual real-time topup on buses? Yay! Actually usable on trains? Double yay! Actually loading monthly passes onto the card? Triple yay!

For what it's worth, Snapper availability in Auckland has actually been declining, with many retailers that used to offer it now dropping it without warning, leaving passengers with fewer and fewer places to actually top up, especially since they cannot do it on buses. I also know a few people who are even a bit annoyed by that 10c topup fee, of which the only way to avoid it is to buy a Snapper Feeder - which isn't available at any retailers, and has to be ordered from Snapper. Especially frustrating though is that Snapper cards in Auckland cannot have any kind of monthly pass - even NZ Bus passes - loaded onto it. And MicroPayments? I've even encountered some retailers who say that while they will top up a Snapper/HOP card, they will not allow it as a form of payment. Ultimately, it's been limited to the point of uselessness here.

nigelj:
Lastly, I see micro-payments/in-store transactions as a small-fries/moot point, by ~2016 pretty much everyone between the ages of 16 and ~40-50 are likely (in my opinion) to have at least one Paywave or Paypass style card (Visa Debit/Mastercard Debit, Credit Card etc), having used the Paypass stuff in Australia a couple of times now, it seem natural and (Westpac, are you listening?) something I'd love to start doing now.

Westpac has already launched PayPass. Any MasterCard issued after July 2012 is contactless.

sbiddle

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#674964 21-Aug-2012 09:26

The topup charge exist because retailers refuse to do it for free - this money goes to them.

The issue with HOP right now is the end hardware.

Kyanar

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#675025 21-Aug-2012 11:12

sbiddle: The topup charge exist because retailers refuse to do it for free - this money goes to them.

Agree, but even Britomart charges the topup fee, which is just madness since they are Auckland Transport (I realise it's operated by Veolia on their behalf...) so they really have no excuse.

knoydart

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#675030 21-Aug-2012 11:19

Kyanar: Agree, but even Britomart charges the topup fee, which is just madness since they are Auckland Transport (I realise it's operated by Veolia on their behalf...) so they really have no excuse.

It gets worse if you are in Wellington, if you top up a snapper card at Snapper's hq, you still get bitten by the top up fee. I was told it is pre programmed into the snapper/EFTPOS machines.

Beccara

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#675042 21-Aug-2012 11:54

insane:

To the person who said that the NZTA should run the system.... please use the Northern Gateway Toll road a few times and then let us know if you still feel that way afterwards :)

Huh, Whats the issue? I use it alot and it's fine!

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

oxnsox

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#675049 21-Aug-2012 12:10

insane:To the person who said that the NZTA should run the system.... please use the Northern Gateway Toll road a few times and then let us know if you still feel that way afterwards :)

Yep, thats a poor excuse for system too.

My real point was there should be some kind of unified system across the country and there was an opportunity for some party (like NZTA) to be in the drivers seat for than and earn some revenue in the process. (Imagine that a transport system where profits from the revenue stream actually go back into transport funding.)

But instead it looks like we're going to be (eventually) pushed into bank provided solutions, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But in the interim we have to put up with disconnected local and regional solutions. In short we'll be paying to re-invent the wheel (all over the country) when we could, and should, have simply been paying to keep the wheels we've got deliver us more efficiently.

wellygary

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#675061 21-Aug-2012 12:29

knoydart:
It gets worse if you are in Wellington, if you top up a snapper card at Snapper's hq, you still get bitten by the top up fee. I was told it is pre programmed into the snapper/EFTPOS machines.

Thats not true,
if you use one of the kiosks and EFTPOS its costs you nothing, the Kiosks are at
Snapper HQ - Level 8, Kordia House, 109-125 Willis Street, Wellington

ASB Sports Centre - 72 Kemp Street, Kilbirnie, Wellington

Wellington City Library - 65 Victoria Street, Wellington

Reading Cinemas - Courtenay Central, Level 1, 100 Courtenay Place, Wellington

Airport Flyer Waiting Room - Wellington Airport, Stuart Duff Drive, Rongotai, Wellington

http://www.snapper.co.nz/top-up-at-kiosks/

knoydart

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#675066 21-Aug-2012 12:34

Yes you rightly point out EFTPOS does work at those locations, but not with cash

DoggNZ

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#675068 21-Aug-2012 12:40

Is there a fee for topping up your Snapper SIM or a normal Snapper card via the Snapper App on a 2 Degrees phone? I've done it but never actually took any notice

Edit: Ok, the Snapper site still shows my pre-top up balance and it looks like I got stung ~$3

sbiddle

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#675105 21-Aug-2012 14:02

oxnsox:
But instead it looks like we're going to be (eventually) pushed into bank provided solutions, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But in the interim we have to put up with disconnected local and regional solutions. In short we'll be paying to re-invent the wheel (all over the country) when we could, and should, have simply been paying to keep the wheels we've got deliver us more efficiently.

To me this is a key point - why do I have to carry a Snapper / HOP card with me to pay for the bus? I should just be able to use a Paypass / Paywave credit card to pay for the journey if I so desire. Unfortunately NZTA don't see any point in this capability so we'll never see it in a solution from them.

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