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924 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 857621 16-Jul-2013 19:24
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No, you are just choosing to interpret things that way.

please explain to me how a head mounted lamp is safe to road users.

Using other examples of bad or unsafe practice to justify your unsafe practice is a bit dumb really



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  Reply # 857628 16-Jul-2013 19:25
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PaulBags:

The narrowness of the road, perhaps because of the roadworks, is the reason that there isn't a safe opportunity to pull back over and let drivers pass. Last time I read the cycle section of the road code it agreed.
 


If you regularly cycle for 10+ minutes without ever once finding a place you can pull over/in to let traffic pass because of roadworks or narrow roads, then you must have some pretty epic-scale roadworks and some really unusually narrow and awful roads in your neck of the woods.

Plus, if you are wearing one of those searchlights on your head on such a road then you won't have to worry about finding a spot to pull over. Chances are one of the oncoming drivers you have just totally blinded by burning out their retinas with your portable searchlight will lose control and hit you long before it becomes an issue.

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  Reply # 857639 16-Jul-2013 19:51
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JimmyH:
PaulBags:

The narrowness of the road, perhaps because of the roadworks, is the reason that there isn't a safe opportunity to pull back over and let drivers pass. Last time I read the cycle section of the road code it agreed.
 


If you regularly cycle for 10+ minutes without ever once finding a place you can pull over/in to let traffic pass because of roadworks or narrow roads, then you must have some pretty epic-scale roadworks and some really unusually narrow and awful roads in your neck of the woods.


Who said anything about 10 minutes?

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 857654 16-Jul-2013 20:17
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Sigh. I'm a cyclist, mainly mountainbike (last count 4.5 bikes in the garage) but reluctant to ride on the road. I see it from both sides.

You have to be blatantly aggressive at times when riding on the road, standing tall, make eye contact with drivers waiting at intersections, because if you don't you could be lit be up like a Christmas tree and fluro and you still won't be seen.

I've been doored once, and knocked off three times by wing mirrors, I never run reds, and generally avoid road riding like the plague. I often think roadies have some kind of death wish but I see more poor behaviour by drivers (I spend most of my day in the car for work).

As for lights, I have pretty generic LED's, two red on the back, one on my seatpost, one on my Camelback, and two lights on the front, one on my bars and one on my chest strap. Listening to the debates I would rather have a serious headlamp and occasionally cause drivers the odd dazzle (like I get from car highbeams when riding or driving) than risk not being seen. I've been dazzled driving before. But what I get from this thread is that is seems that ALL cyclists are wearing offroad lamps (I own some and they're terrific, haven't used them on the road other than a half a dozen times when returning from an offroad night ride)

I would like to think that those wearing serious headlamps, are probably reasonably experienced cyclists, and probably have the ability not to stare and oncoming traffic by moving their whole head (go on a mountainbike night ride and see how quickly people learn not to look directly at each other)

So anyway, I don't think we need to rush out and legislate anything just yet, there are so few cyclists anyway...

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 857661 16-Jul-2013 20:24
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Truely Paul its not worth the effort trying to talk to people here on this topic. The hysterical nonsense spouted by some posters mean that reasoned discussion is wasted.

Obviously they have never been on a bike, nor commuted in a city, nor been hit by stupid drivers, nor had their lives put at risk while merely trying to get to work. In short they don't know what they are talking about.

PaulBags:
Who said anything about 10 minutes?

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 857672 16-Jul-2013 20:33
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TheUngeek: No, you are just choosing to interpret things that way.

please explain to me how a head mounted lamp is safe to road users.

Using other examples of bad or unsafe practice to justify your unsafe practice is a bit dumb really




Well, if it's dipped instead of pointed directly at other roads users it's perfectly safe. Much like if headlights are dipped, they don't blind people. I'm not sure what your not getting.

Should we ban streetlights, because if you look directly at them they're really bright?

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  Reply # 857698 16-Jul-2013 21:06
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NO.
They are too high, that's the whole crux of this conversation. By being mounted on a head, at that height it is impossible for them to not be shone into a drivers lights. Add to that the increasing intensity avaialbel and you have a serious issue.
And "the odd dazzle" is not what is being spoken about. It's instant and complete blinding by a bright light.

Quite frankly with the attitudes of some cyclists on here it's no surprise there is increasing anger towards them.
And before you spout off random insults of car drivers. I ride my bike at night on roads as well.
I practice a thing called "situational awareness"
And I ride my bike the same way I drive my car. I NEVER assume that just because I'd be in the right, I'll be ok.

I'm quite disgusted that some have chosen to take this as an unfair attack on cyclists. Really does not make the culprits look good at all.

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  Reply # 857703 16-Jul-2013 21:16
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Piggy backing on this thread - could drivers actually use their indicator and when using it not to suddenly put it on just as they are going around the corner/pealing onto an off ramp. I really have to wonder whether most of NZ would fail their licence if they had to re-sit it again.




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  Reply # 857777 16-Jul-2013 23:36
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TheUngeek: NO.
They are too high, that's the whole crux of this conversation. By being mounted on a head, at that height it is impossible for them to not be shone into a drivers lights. Add to that the increasing intensity avaialbel and you have a serious issue.
And "the odd dazzle" is not what is being spoken about. It's instant and complete blinding by a bright light.

Quite frankly with the attitudes of some cyclists on here it's no surprise there is increasing anger towards them.
And before you spout off random insults of car drivers. I ride my bike at night on roads as well.
I practice a thing called "situational awareness"
And I ride my bike the same way I drive my car. I NEVER assume that just because I'd be in the right, I'll be ok.

I'm quite disgusted that some have chosen to take this as an unfair attack on cyclists. Really does not make the culprits look good at all.


Car headlights shine directly into peoples (I assume you meant to say eyes) too. It's hard to have situational awareness when there is no street lights and you don't have a decent light that you can shine where you need it, it's also hard to have situational awareness when your blinded by a cars headlights. As for being in the right and still not being ok: yes, I agree, there are drivers out there ignoring the road code and endangering cyclists.

I'm not a driver so I have to ask: is it really a problem if they don't actually shine it into your car? Surely if it's not pointed at you it's a small point of light your passing, much like walking past a light bulb? I remember when I used to bike at night (got too expensive fixing my bike in Christchurch) car headlights would be quite a problem, if idiots drove around on high beam.

I have to admit, at least once in the past I've briefly shone my high beam at a car, because they did it to me and I wanted them to realise what they were doing; although now I somehow doubt they understood the gesture. Much the same as if a driver flashed their high beams at an on-coming car driving with their high beams on.

As for an unfair attack, I don't know about that. Completely dismissing a vital tool for navigating poorly lit roads, S bends, and other intersections because a few people use it recklessly seems a tad unfair to me. When I rode I keep my helmet light at 45 degrees, slightly angled to the left away from oncoming cars. I kept it on a lower power or off depending on lighting, only using high power and/or a higher angle when there were no street lights and/or no other vehicles. Several times raising my light slightly kept a driver from running me over from a side road, and several times it helped me avoid hazards I otherwise wouldn't have seen. Back when I rode the clause in the road code saying that lights should be handlebar mounted wasn't even in there. Suprisingly the road code still implies that it's ok to have multiple flashing rear facing red lights, when I've heard for years that multiple flashing lights mess with depth perception and cyclists have been pulled over and talked to about it.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 857823 17-Jul-2013 07:23
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Stopped reading when you asked is it OK if not shone at a driver.
As pointed out NUMEROUS times already, you cannot safely ride in an urban area and not point it at cars.
Please read what has been said already and take it on board.

No point having a conversation if the other party ignores what I'm saying

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  Reply # 857831 17-Jul-2013 08:02
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TheUngeek: Stopped reading when you asked is it OK if not shone at a driver.
As pointed out NUMEROUS times already, you cannot safely ride in an urban area and not point it at cars.
Please read what has been said already and take it on board.

No point having a conversation if the other party ignores what I'm saying


So you ignored what I said, then say theres no point having a conversation if people are going to ignore you? You can use it without pointing it at cars, you can dip it, turn it off, use a helmet mounted mirror as well to see behind you, look indirectly at cars... I'm not the only ignorant one.

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  Reply # 857832 17-Jul-2013 08:02
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I would like to think that those wearing serious headlamps, are probably reasonably experienced cyclists, and probably have the ability not to stare and oncoming traffic by moving their whole head (go on a mountainbike night ride and see how quickly people learn not to look directly at each other)

So anyway, I don't think we need to rush out and legislate anything just yet, there are so few cyclists anyway...


wishful thinking there, I have seen a few "experienced" cyclists ride through red lights and totally ignore road rules, some well known cyclists as well so just because they are experienced means nothing. 

I have seen several cyclists that are well kitted out and with the floodlights attached but seem oblivious to what they are causing and on well lit streets so thing mostly its ignorance of what it is doing that is the case. The ones I've seen have also been in well lit streets so assume its not for seeing but ot be seen and therefore overkill.

The whole point seems lost on most here these lights are mostly designed for off roading where there is in sufficient or no lighting. There is no way you can avoid not shining these beams into oncoming motorists/cyclists eyes unless they are fixed which they aren't or you don't move your head or handlebars.








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  Reply # 857867 17-Jul-2013 08:48
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Correct - the point I was making with this thread is that there is an big increase in cyclist using these really, really strong or inappropriate lights, and in the wrong ways.

I have no quarms with cyclist (or any other road user) wanting and trying to be safe, but anyone who does so by going over board and putting other road users at risk needs to know that is what they are doing and that it is unacceptable - and as I have said previously, I suspect that most have no idea they are putting other road users at risk.

And anyone who goes on about "Oh, well, we see motorist not dipping their lights sometimes" is just not making sense for using that as an excuse for why it is OK for them to do it!!! (remember the old addage Two wrongs don't make a right.) A motorist forgetting to dip their light is just that - forgetful. They haven't left them on full with the intent purpose of blinding other road users (or at least not usually). So to use those examples as a reason or excuse for being able to wear a floodlight on ones head is poor.


We've had some very healthy and reasoned discussion with most people treating others and their views with respect, and it seems that most people are on the same page here - which is fantastic. And I hope that continues.

What I don't want in here is people trolling (which it looks like we've had already) or going all fanatical. Lets keep respecting each other and each others views.


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  Reply # 857883 17-Jul-2013 08:59
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jeffnz: The whole point seems lost on most here these lights are mostly designed for off roading where there is in sufficient or no lighting. There is no way you can avoid not shining these beams into oncoming motorists/cyclists eyes unless they are fixed which they aren't or you don't move your head or handlebars.


...Or you face your head straight foreward and adjust the beam at a down angle before you even get on the bike, so that you can't raise it too high.

 

keewee01: We've had some very healthy and reasoned discussion with most people treating others and their views with respect, and it seems that most people are on the same page here - which is fantastic. And I hope that continues.

What I don't want in here is people trolling (which it looks like we've had already) or going all fanatical. Lets keep respecting each other and each others views


...By ignoring their views and calling them trolls? I've suggested multiple ways to avoid blinding people with these lights as well and multiple reasons why they are useful. In return all I've seen is "I don't like it, your wrong, neener neener".

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 857886 17-Jul-2013 09:05
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keewee01: And anyone who goes on about "Oh, well, we see motorist not dipping their lights sometimes" is just not making sense for using that as an excuse for why it is OK for them to do it!!! (remember the old addage Two wrongs don't make a right.) A motorist forgetting to dip their light is just that - forgetful. They haven't left them on full with the intent purpose of blinding other road users (or at least not usually). So to use those examples as a reason or excuse for being able to wear a floodlight on ones head is poor.


And actually no, that's not unreasonable. Now your suggesting that cyclists are purposefully wearing bright lights just to blind other people, and saying that motorists never would? Who's the troll? Yeah your right, motorists do it too isn't a reason to do it. It's pointing out that A) it can happen from cars too, and B) cyclists aren't doing it on purpose either.

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