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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1033833 30-Apr-2014 11:10
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In regard to position, most advice I see these days is for 9-and-3 - not least due to airbag deployment http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/get-times-youre-driving-all-wrong-f518710

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  Reply # 1033844 30-Apr-2014 11:31
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Try doing "shuffle" in a 83 Tredia........  FWD, no power steering. Drove like a tank.... but that thing could shift, just not turn in a hurry, no matter what method you used. 
Probably tried killing Blakjak in that car a few times.....





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  Reply # 1033893 30-Apr-2014 12:05
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xpd: Try doing "shuffle" in a 83 Tredia........  FWD, no power steering. Drove like a tank.... but that thing could shift, just not turn in a hurry, no matter what method you used. 
Probably tried killing Blakjak in that car a few times.....



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  Reply # 1033894 30-Apr-2014 12:05
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I think learning to control the brakes is more important than where the two hands go.

But i'd say somewhere in the middle - so between 10-2 and 9-3.

Instructor can do 11-1 doesn't mean the student won't die.

The biggest problem in a learner is figuring out how much brake to apply and how much to turn, not where to put the hands.

- a hot burger in the left hand, right hand doing everything with no power steering on a 6 speed manual is safer than a learner holding 10-2.

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  Reply # 1033914 30-Apr-2014 12:19
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Like most things in life - theory does not resemble real life practice. Teach him the correct way to pass the test and then what really happens in real life which is what most people have already described

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  Reply # 1034175 30-Apr-2014 18:12
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rhy7s: ... most advice I see these days is for 9-and-3 -...


Wouldn't strict 9&3 be awkward because of the wide horizontal spokes in many non-sports steering-wheels?

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  Reply # 1034220 30-Apr-2014 19:28
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joker97: I think learning to control the brakes is more important than where the two hands go.

But i'd say somewhere in the middle - so between 10-2 and 9-3.

Instructor can do 11-1 doesn't mean the student won't die.

The biggest problem in a learner is figuring out how much brake to apply and how much to turn, not where to put the hands.


Very true.  Also when to start braking or turning. There gets a point that no matter how hard you brake you're never going to retrieve the situation. The braking point will change with conditions and speed.  This judgement isn't learned overnight.

joker97:- a hot burger in the left hand, right hand doing everything with no power steering on a 6 speed manual is safer than a learner holding 10-2.


This put a smile on my face.




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  Reply # 1034222 30-Apr-2014 19:43
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In the event of an accident and airbag deployment, you should have your hands positioned a little lower on the wheel or you are more at risk of finger amputation or degloving. 

If you are doing arm crossover steering when the airbags deploy, it will not be pretty.

So, this is more about the effects of airbag deployment dangers than the ins and outs of the level of control of each method (of which I think there is no real difference). 

I could be wrong though, but I think other things have a lot more importance such as signalling properly. 

 




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  Reply # 1034226 30-Apr-2014 19:52
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After reading the NBC news link and googling "Degloving" I'm definitely converting to. A. 10/3 hold.. Seriously disturbing images.

FYI I'm about. To redo my class 1 in order to get a P endorsement after 25 years driving ' normally' anyone have any good tips for me to pass - obviously I'm going to use both hands on the wheel whenever I remember :)

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  Reply # 1034227 30-Apr-2014 19:54
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I did a BMW advanced motor training day at Manfield race track a few years back.  Was a whole heap of fun but it included an hour or so in the classroom prior to going anywhere near the track.
Vibe from that was the shuffling is nice in principle, but if you need to change direction quickly in an emergency situation then shuffling is out the window.
It may have been suitable for older cars with low gearing ratios to help turn the wheel the 17 whole turns etc before power steering, but most modern cars turn an awful long way between hands crossed over one way through to hands crossed over the other way.

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  Reply # 1034243 30-Apr-2014 20:12
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Yeah, the BMW Driving Academy is one of many prominent organisations to promote 9-and-3 http://www.motoroids.com/news/bmw-driving-academy-maisach-things-know-better-driver/

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  Reply # 1034260 30-Apr-2014 20:36
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rhy7s: Yeah, the BMW Driving Academy is one of many prominent organisations to promote 9-and-3 http://www.motoroids.com/news/bmw-driving-academy-maisach-things-know-better-driver/

I'd trust them more than some grumpy old so-and-so that got an instructors licence in NZ 30 years ago.

Incidentally, the way they steer in that link is the same way I do, but I've been driving trucks for years and shuffling would mean I'd never get around a corner :) 

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  Reply # 1034262 30-Apr-2014 20:44
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Jaxson: I did a BMW advanced motor training day at Manfield race track a few years back.  Was a whole heap of fun but it included an hour or so in the classroom prior to going anywhere near the track.
Vibe from that was the shuffling is nice in principle, but if you need to change direction quickly in an emergency situation then shuffling is out the window.
It may have been suitable for older cars with low gearing ratios to help turn the wheel the 17 whole turns etc before power steering, but most modern cars turn an awful long way between hands crossed over one way through to hands crossed over the other way.


When i'm shuffling i'm forced to work slower - but this isn't unsafe if you're travelling at appropriate speeds for it.

Isn't 'spec' these days in the order of 3.6 turns full lock?






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  Reply # 1034282 30-Apr-2014 21:05
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that's a lot of shuffling for a 3 point turn ...

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  Reply # 1034298 30-Apr-2014 21:28
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Definitely NO crossed hands.  The 10 and 2 position used to be the mantra, but as mentioned to ensure airbags can operate efficiently the standard is now 9 and 3. Personally for slow maneuvering anything goes to get the job done, but with any kind of forward speed and it's straight back to 9 and 3 with a push-pull action (not a shuffle).



 




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