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  Reply # 1147973 6-Oct-2014 08:18
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joker97: Nothing to do with darkness. The reason for the crash was rain and presence of a tractor.


Yes. Sutil said they should have had a safety car out once he went off, and in hindsight he was right, but its always worked to have waved yellow flags to indicate an issue so the drivers slow down. On the other hand, its hard to know without details of Jule's speed and issues he had.    

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  Reply # 1147987 6-Oct-2014 08:45
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joker97: Nothing to do with darkness. The reason for the crash was rain and presence of a tractor.

Says who? Surely it was a contributing factor. Lots of rain, nearly dark, can't see the standing water, distracted by yellow flags.

 
 
 
 




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  Reply # 1147988 6-Oct-2014 08:50
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So the rain caused the darkness which wouldn't be dark otherwise.

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  Reply # 1147989 6-Oct-2014 08:51
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k14:
joker97: Nothing to do with darkness. The reason for the crash was rain and presence of a tractor.

Says who? Surely it was a contributing factor. Lots of rain, nearly dark, can't see the standing water, distracted by yellow flags.


Those are pre existing and known issues for all the drivers. To go off the track in rain is common, to have a digger in the way, isn't



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  Reply # 1147990 6-Oct-2014 08:52
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And without the tractor there would be only marshals, adrian, and Adrian's car to crash into, which wouldn't cause jules his injury

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  Reply # 1148023 6-Oct-2014 10:10
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joker97: So the rain caused the darkness which wouldn't be dark otherwise.

What are you on, I didn't say that? It was less than 20 mins before sunset. The heavy rain/low cloud meant visibility was worse than it would have been had it been clear skies. Did you watch the race? It was pretty dim even on TV and the video cameras always make it look a lot lighter than it actually was. The race start was delayed by ~40 mins and they were already pushing it. I just think they should have had the race end a bit earlier than it actually did.

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  Reply # 1148024 6-Oct-2014 10:10
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tdgeek:
k14:
joker97: Nothing to do with darkness. The reason for the crash was rain and presence of a tractor.

Says who? Surely it was a contributing factor. Lots of rain, nearly dark, can't see the standing water, distracted by yellow flags.


Those are pre existing and known issues for all the drivers. To go off the track in rain is common, to have a digger in the way, isn't

Yep totally agree, they should have had safety car (or red flag) the second that tractor went past the armco.

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  Reply # 1148075 6-Oct-2014 10:26
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joker97: Nothing to do with darkness. The reason for the crash was rain and presence of a tractor.


That's not entirely true.

The lack of light was apparently making it very difficult to see standing water.  Massa was complaining about 5 laps earlier that it needed to be called off.
Those cars not running such a high downforce setup were finding it very hard to push down through the water.

The timing of these events is usually targeted around European viewers, and that's got to be addressed if they're going to run so close to sundown in the local location.
Add to that the dark clouds and light does become a factor.  We had a similar situation earlier this year also.

A safety car situation should have been in place with an object such as this tractor being outside the protective barriers. 

The end result of all these factors sounds horrible.

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  Reply # 1148083 6-Oct-2014 10:39
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k14:
tdgeek:
k14:
joker97: Nothing to do with darkness. The reason for the crash was rain and presence of a tractor.

Says who? Surely it was a contributing factor. Lots of rain, nearly dark, can't see the standing water, distracted by yellow flags.


Those are pre existing and known issues for all the drivers. To go off the track in rain is common, to have a digger in the way, isn't

Yep totally agree, they should have had safety car (or red flag) the second that tractor went past the armco.


I didnt suggest a safety car or red flag.  So, your suggesting that over the course of a race weekend, there will be many many red flags through FP1, FP2, FP3 and Quali, and that in the race there will be many red flags and/or safety cars? There are many occasions where a car has to be removed, whether thats a digger or marshalls.

Currently the course of action is waved yellows. The incident yesterday was no different to others. Maybe a higher risk of another car going off due to conditions, also the cars are running slower and there were waved yellows. I feel that this accident is likely to be a freak event, locked throttle that, type of thing. But to suggest that we use safety car or red flag for every incursion by a digger, would be wrong. And you therefore also must include if its only marshalls

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  Reply # 1148086 6-Oct-2014 10:43
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Jaxson:

A safety car situation should have been in place with an object such as this tractor being outside the protective barriers. 

.


As per my post above, this will mean a safety car out often every race, very often. And through the race weekend, there will need to be the same treatment , so there will be red flags or use the safety car very often every FP session?

I've watched many many many F1 races, I have never seen this, lets see what caused Jules car to go off at speed, in the wet, with waved yellows in place, first.

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  Reply # 1148093 6-Oct-2014 10:59
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tdgeek:
Jaxson:

A safety car situation should have been in place with an object such as this tractor being outside the protective barriers. 

.


As per my post above, this will mean a safety car out often every race, very often. And through the race weekend, there will need to be the same treatment , so there will be red flags or use the safety car very often every FP session?

I've watched many many many F1 races, I have never seen this, lets see what caused Jules car to go off at speed, in the wet, with waved yellows in place, first.


Agreed, waved yellows is sufficient normally, although they don't slow down that much under this state.  Was it single or double yellows at that point.  Double yellows is normally only used when something is blocking the racing track.  A single means use caution and slow with no passing, but normally people are still at fairly quick speeds for a single.

Still, barring Sutil, most other drivers made their way past this location with no issues.

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  Reply # 1148097 6-Oct-2014 11:08
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Jaxson:
tdgeek:
Jaxson:

A safety car situation should have been in place with an object such as this tractor being outside the protective barriers. 

.


As per my post above, this will mean a safety car out often every race, very often. And through the race weekend, there will need to be the same treatment , so there will be red flags or use the safety car very often every FP session?

I've watched many many many F1 races, I have never seen this, lets see what caused Jules car to go off at speed, in the wet, with waved yellows in place, first.


Agreed, waved yellows is sufficient normally, although they don't slow down that much under this state.  Was it single or double yellows at that point.  Double yellows is normally only used when something is blocking the racing track.  A single means use caution and slow with no passing, but normally people are still at fairly quick speeds for a single.

Still, barring Sutil, most other drivers made their way past this location with no issues.


Yep, something must have gone wrong to make Jules leave the track at speed. There has to be a large enquiry, as initially it has to be seen as a safety issue that was not met, we need to know why.  Problem is the Jules crash had no TV coverage. AFAIK there were the normal precautions taken

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  Reply # 1148112 6-Oct-2014 11:27
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tdgeek: I didnt suggest a safety car or red flag.  So, your suggesting that over the course of a race weekend, there will be many many red flags through FP1, FP2, FP3 and Quali, and that in the race there will be many red flags and/or safety cars? There are many occasions where a car has to be removed, whether thats a digger or marshalls.

Currently the course of action is waved yellows. The incident yesterday was no different to others. Maybe a higher risk of another car going off due to conditions, also the cars are running slower and there were waved yellows. I feel that this accident is likely to be a freak event, locked throttle that, type of thing. But to suggest that we use safety car or red flag for every incursion by a digger, would be wrong. And you therefore also must include if its only marshalls

I think that is probably why the officials kept the race going. They were thinking, "we do it all the time so its safe to do it now". Usually in a dry race with one car off it is fine for the marshals to clean up a crashed car with tractor etc. But in this incident there were multiple other factors at play that just meant the chance and consequences of a crash increased too far. Too late now though!

FYI, FP1 (or was it FP2, can't remember) was red flagged twice due two cars having problems. So it does happen.

I also think Suzuka is one of those older tracks that doesn't have the run off and safety of the newer tracks. Daijiro Kato was killed there in MotoGP about 10 years ago when he hit a wall at the final chicane. Since then they haven't been back. This could potentially spell the end for the F1 guys?



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  Reply # 1148133 6-Oct-2014 11:49
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k14:
tdgeek: I didnt suggest a safety car or red flag.  So, your suggesting that over the course of a race weekend, there will be many many red flags through FP1, FP2, FP3 and Quali, and that in the race there will be many red flags and/or safety cars? There are many occasions where a car has to be removed, whether thats a digger or marshalls.

Currently the course of action is waved yellows. The incident yesterday was no different to others. Maybe a higher risk of another car going off due to conditions, also the cars are running slower and there were waved yellows. I feel that this accident is likely to be a freak event, locked throttle that, type of thing. But to suggest that we use safety car or red flag for every incursion by a digger, would be wrong. And you therefore also must include if its only marshalls

I think that is probably why the officials kept the race going. They were thinking, "we do it all the time so its safe to do it now". Usually in a dry race with one car off it is fine for the marshals to clean up a crashed car with tractor etc. But in this incident there were multiple other factors at play that just meant the chance and consequences of a crash increased too far. Too late now though!

FYI, FP1 (or was it FP2, can't remember) was red flagged twice due two cars having problems. So it does happen.

I also think Suzuka is one of those older tracks that doesn't have the run off and safety of the newer tracks. Daijiro Kato was killed there in MotoGP about 10 years ago when he hit a wall at the final chicane. Since then they haven't been back. This could potentially spell the end for the F1 guys?


F1 = Bernie.
No end to F1, not by a death of a driver anyway.



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  Reply # 1148134 6-Oct-2014 11:52
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tdgeek:
Yep, something must have gone wrong to make Jules leave the track at speed. There has to be a large enquiry, as initially it has to be seen as a safety issue that was not met, we need to know why.  Problem is the Jules crash had no TV coverage. AFAIK there were the normal precautions taken


you don't need to have something wrong to leave the track at speed. F1 cars fast = 200-300kph. Slow = 150kph. The car is UNDRIVABLE under a certain speed as there is no downforce to provide traction, so you need to drive fast round a bend.

at 100-150kph once you aquaplane you do not drop in speed. if you aquaplane at 120 you hit the tractor at 120-friction, so maybe 100-110.

head vs tractor at 100 = tofu

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