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  Reply # 1059507 5-Jun-2014 07:14
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It was pretty hard to fly the yachts over in the 1800's....




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  Reply # 1059508 5-Jun-2014 07:16
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itxtme:
mattwnz:
itxtme: Here we go again!  The economics of funding the Americas cup has been well and truly proven.  Tax payer money is an emotive subject.  The fact is they (the government) makes more money than they fund.

With that being said, I think Larry is taking the piss, which is ironic given the lengths he went to sue Alinghi after what he deemed was grossly unfair Challenger rules


I don't know if it has been proven. If it has been, where? People can massage figures and stats to suit a point of view, as economic benefits are very difficult to measure, as there are so many things to consider. I think they were adding in benefits such as different countries boats being built in NZ. Which may have happened even if NZ didn't have out own team, as we have some of the better designers and boat building companies in the world But if NZ didn't have a team, does this mean that NZ wouldn't get those jobs for building other countries boats?
Economically, we may not make a loss, but is it a good return, especially as NZ is still borrowing billions of dollars from overseas.


Bizarre, without going to every purchaser of a super yacht from NZ we would not be able to substantiate your claims.  If you truly believe the Americas cup has no bearing on the brand that is NZ nautical engineering you are deluded.  Maybe you could put forward your solid argument for how this industry pushes ahead when NZ is preforming well in Americas cup? I would like to think our government departments are not so corrupt that they can put out a document analyising the cost vs benefit, and they do, but for some reason its just  them "massaging figures".  Might need to get out the tin foil.


And you went and said it again "as NZ is still borrowing billions of dollars".  I dont meant to sound patronising but if Jimmy has 3 beans and he plants those 3 beans beans and waits, a year later on that tree grows 10 beans.  Should Jimmy have planted those 3 beans?


Yes. But if we took the $35 million the government sunk into the last campaign and use it to market our super yacht market that money will go a long way....




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  Reply # 1059529 5-Jun-2014 08:24
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http://www.med.govt.nz/majorevents/news/americas-cup-evaluation-reports

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  Reply # 1059549 5-Jun-2014 08:50
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Yes. But if we took the $35 million the government sunk into the last campaign and use it to market our super yacht market that money will go a long way....


A long way in what, google adwords? Lots of countries make super yachts. Lots of countries make super yachts cheaper.  Events like the Americas cup show how we can make them better.  We can argue back and forth until both sides are blue in the face.  The fact is the Government spends the money on things like this only when there is financial gain to be had.  Hence why we dont fund a formula 1 team..  

The article stagnant16 posted is an article summary of the last challenge funding from two sources one being completely independent from the government


New Zealand directly benefited from Government investment, with 85% of the total campaign budget being spent on our shores, totaling $153 million.


Massaging right?

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  Reply # 1059555 5-Jun-2014 08:58
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These teams are the promotion engines of well funded multi national corporations, when the Government is constantly cutting government services like health etc it should not be subsidizing these corporations. When we have for example rescue helicopter services, children's hospitals etc having to do public fundraising, raffles etc it is obscene that the Government would even remotely consider subsidizing multi millionaires to play with boats.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1059587 5-Jun-2014 09:49
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I think you need to refer back to my example on burying beans on the last page.  How the government spends the return on their investment is up to the government, however the reality is they actually have MORE (yes thats right, more) money after investing in such event...

If they didnt invest the money they would actually have less money to spend on rescue helicopter services, children's hospitals etc.  It really is that simple!

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  Reply # 1059625 5-Jun-2014 10:12
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KiwiNZ: These teams are the promotion engines of well funded multi national corporations, when the Government is constantly cutting government services like health etc it should not be subsidizing these corporations. When we have for example rescue helicopter services, children's hospitals etc having to do public fundraising, raffles etc it is obscene that the Government would even remotely consider subsidizing multi millionaires to play with boats.


Such an annoying argument, and it is trotted out every time the America's Cup comes up.

The government is NOT cutting health funding, it goes up every budget. Same with education, and Social Welfare.

What you are saying is that all the government should do is fund the core services (Health, Education, ???). Fine. Should they not spend money on roads? - after all, only rich people that can afford cars and petrol will use these roads. Oh, but businesses use roads, and they would go broke without them. Using Government funded roads to line their filthy capitalist pockets - how dare they?!

The Government funds heaps and heaps of things we don't all agree on (eg. The Dole, I have never been on the Dole, why should my tax dollars go towards it?? I am however happy for there to be a Social Welfare system in this country) - they must work out the cost/benefits of each of them, and obviously in the case of the America's Cup, they have worked out that investing $36m has more benefits than costs.

/rant.

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  Reply # 1059630 5-Jun-2014 10:18
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So I don't have a problem with the last America's Cup funding. I am talking about the next America's Cup. With the odds so heavily stacked in the defenders favour I am asking "What is the point?". Do we just have the attitude that we are going to lose but it will good for the economy so let's do it anyway.

I would like to think that funding is based on an assumption that we would have a reasonable chance of winning the thing. Based on the rules being put forward I think the chances of any challenger winning it are slim.




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  Reply # 1059632 5-Jun-2014 10:24
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Yes, the new protocol does look a little stacked in the defender's favour, but I didn't think it was too bad.

Sure, Oracle can have two boats, but they must be from the same mould, and they are not allowed any more wings, blades and foils than any other team, and those are the most important bits. The one boat rule will save money.

They reckon 6 or 7 teams will enter - I do not see too many commercial teams (and that is what ETNZ are) entering, after all, only four will actually make it to the 'Big Show' which is where sponsors will want to be seen.

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  Reply # 1059662 5-Jun-2014 10:39
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trig42:
KiwiNZ: These teams are the promotion engines of well funded multi national corporations, when the Government is constantly cutting government services like health etc it should not be subsidizing these corporations. When we have for example rescue helicopter services, children's hospitals etc having to do public fundraising, raffles etc it is obscene that the Government would even remotely consider subsidizing multi millionaires to play with boats.


Such an annoying argument, and it is trotted out every time the America's Cup comes up.

The government is NOT cutting health funding, it goes up every budget. Same with education, and Social Welfare.

What you are saying is that all the government should do is fund the core services (Health, Education, ???). Fine. Should they not spend money on roads? - after all, only rich people that can afford cars and petrol will use these roads. Oh, but businesses use roads, and they would go broke without them. Using Government funded roads to line their filthy capitalist pockets - how dare they?!

The Government funds heaps and heaps of things we don't all agree on (eg. The Dole, I have never been on the Dole, why should my tax dollars go towards it?? I am however happy for there to be a Social Welfare system in this country) - they must work out the cost/benefits of each of them, and obviously in the case of the America's Cup, they have worked out that investing $36m has more benefits than costs.

/rant.


Roadi infrastructure is a core Government service.

Health has been cut, just walk around any hospital and see what services are no longer available, why then does Starship have to fund raise ? why are rescue services struggling and closing ? I am one of those capitalist you refer to but I want my hard earned taxes to go to things that matter not jollys for a few.

The rise in vote health is generally to fund inflation.

If they want to spend some millions on sport put more in to children's sport this will pay better dividends.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


Bee

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  Reply # 1059684 5-Jun-2014 11:01
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In what country are the roads used by only rich people???
Most people in NZ can afford a car...  Most people CANNOT afford an AC62!!!

If you are going to put up an argument at least put one that makes sense!

I am another huge fan that thinks Team NZ have just had one loss too many...

Apparently the Americas Cup does return more money to NZ than the Govt invests.. whether that is on paper only or actual reality I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure the Govt doesn't make a profit on their investment.  

NZ is renowned for its quality boat builders etc...  If the NZ govt didnt invest in Team NZ and they didn't enter a boat, the other teams would still spend money in NZ anyways...



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  Reply # 1059687 5-Jun-2014 11:04
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itxtme:
mattwnz:
itxtme: Here we go again!  The economics of funding the Americas cup has been well and truly proven.  Tax payer money is an emotive subject.  The fact is they (the government) makes more money than they fund.

With that being said, I think Larry is taking the piss, which is ironic given the lengths he went to sue Alinghi after what he deemed was grossly unfair Challenger rules


I don't know if it has been proven. If it has been, where? People can massage figures and stats to suit a point of view, as economic benefits are very difficult to measure, as there are so many things to consider. I think they were adding in benefits such as different countries boats being built in NZ. Which may have happened even if NZ didn't have out own team, as we have some of the better designers and boat building companies in the world But if NZ didn't have a team, does this mean that NZ wouldn't get those jobs for building other countries boats?
Economically, we may not make a loss, but is it a good return, especially as NZ is still borrowing billions of dollars from overseas.


Bizarre, without going to every purchaser of a super yacht from NZ we would not be able to substantiate your claims.  If you truly believe the Americas cup has no bearing on the brand that is NZ nautical engineering you are deluded.  Maybe you could put forward your solid argument for how this industry pushes ahead when NZ is preforming well in Americas cup? I would like to think our government departments are not so corrupt that they can put out a document analyising the cost vs benefit, and they do, but for some reason its just  them "massaging figures".  Might need to get out the tin foil.


And you went and said it again "as NZ is still borrowing billions of dollars".  I dont meant to sound patronising but if Jimmy has 3 beans and he plants those 3 beans beans and waits, a year later on that tree grows 10 beans.  Should Jimmy have planted those 3 beans?


What if he only gets 4 beans back? 
What if those beans dont grow or have a reduced crop? 
What if Jimmy borrows 2 of those 3 beans off his friend ben and agrees to pay back 5 beans? 



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  Reply # 1059696 5-Jun-2014 11:16
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t92300:
itxtme:
mattwnz:
itxtme: Here we go again!  The economics of funding the Americas cup has been well and truly proven.  Tax payer money is an emotive subject.  The fact is they (the government) makes more money than they fund.

With that being said, I think Larry is taking the piss, which is ironic given the lengths he went to sue Alinghi after what he deemed was grossly unfair Challenger rules


I don't know if it has been proven. If it has been, where? People can massage figures and stats to suit a point of view, as economic benefits are very difficult to measure, as there are so many things to consider. I think they were adding in benefits such as different countries boats being built in NZ. Which may have happened even if NZ didn't have out own team, as we have some of the better designers and boat building companies in the world But if NZ didn't have a team, does this mean that NZ wouldn't get those jobs for building other countries boats?
Economically, we may not make a loss, but is it a good return, especially as NZ is still borrowing billions of dollars from overseas.


Bizarre, without going to every purchaser of a super yacht from NZ we would not be able to substantiate your claims.  If you truly believe the Americas cup has no bearing on the brand that is NZ nautical engineering you are deluded.  Maybe you could put forward your solid argument for how this industry pushes ahead when NZ is preforming well in Americas cup? I would like to think our government departments are not so corrupt that they can put out a document analyising the cost vs benefit, and they do, but for some reason its just  them "massaging figures".  Might need to get out the tin foil.


And you went and said it again "as NZ is still borrowing billions of dollars".  I dont meant to sound patronising but if Jimmy has 3 beans and he plants those 3 beans beans and waits, a year later on that tree grows 10 beans.  Should Jimmy have planted those 3 beans?


What if he only gets 4 beans back? 
What if those beans dont grow or have a reduced crop? 
What if Jimmy borrows 2 of those 3 beans off his friend ben and agrees to pay back 5 beans? 




The key is finding which bean leads to the golden goose.




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  Reply # 1059707 5-Jun-2014 11:28
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Bee: In what country are the roads used by only rich people???
Most people in NZ can afford a car...  Most people CANNOT afford an AC62!!!

If you are going to put up an argument at least put one that makes sense!

I am another huge fan that thinks Team NZ have just had one loss too many...

Apparently the Americas Cup does return more money to NZ than the Govt invests.. whether that is on paper only or actual reality I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure the Govt doesn't make a profit on their investment.  

NZ is renowned for its quality boat builders etc...  If the NZ govt didnt invest in Team NZ and they didn't enter a boat, the other teams would still spend money in NZ anyways...




I know most people can afford cars.
 I was just trying to say that the government spends heaps on roads, to be used by people to make (private) money on. The government, and everyone else in NZ, benefits from those people making themselves money by the tax they pay, the more business they bring in, and the productivity those roads create. They spend (a lot) and get a lot back - I don't know if they get more from the roads than they spend, but they probably do.

The same can be said for giving money to the 'Formula1' of yacht racing. Yes, teams will spend money here on the next AC if NZ isn't there, but the one after that? I don't know - I believe NZs economy relies on being in a niche - we cannot compete in mass market products, we do not have the economies of scale and never will. The AC (and bleeding edge racing yachts) is always pushing the envelope, and we need to be there or thereabouts. The government putting in $36m (of which they get quite a bit back in GST and PAYE straight away) is in my view a good investment - it is just easy to pick on as a tall poppy. I wonder what else they spend $10m a year on that we could all jump on as a waste of money?

Sure, maybe they should only back a sure thing, and the chances of Team NZ bringing it back are getting slimmer and slimmer - but there are probably lots of other things the government backs that bring nothing back. (How much did the Hobbit films cost for example? I'd wager about the same, if not more, what tangible benefits do they bring - more than an AC?)

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  Reply # 1059744 5-Jun-2014 12:42
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I've historically supported NZ govt funding of America's Cup bids.  Ultimately what services the government can provide are determined by the size of our economy.  Promoting in way that grows our economy through tourism, maritime engineering and associated technologies is positive in my view.

But I think the Americas cup is becoming ridiculously expensive, to the point of excluding legitimate challengers.  Asking challengers to front with $2M before venue and tv coverage is firmed up effectively rules out teams who will rely on sponsorship from the private sector.

I can see the justification for letting the challengers have two boats from the same mould.  They don't participate in the challenger series so need to test their boats by racing against each other.  For fairness I think the challengers should be allowed to build two boats as well.

Should we participate - ironically while it's high tech expensive yacht formula, it provides the sort of exposure the returns the benefits the country needs, but we are less likely to win.




Mike

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