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Topic # 147003 5-Jun-2014 13:24
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Hi,

Just wondering if someone knows the answer to my following question as a Google search didn't seem to bring back a meaningful answer.

Some luxury cars such as my father's Mercedes come with credit card type proximity keys.  That is they are plastic credit card shaped objects which you keep in your wallet, and your car senses them when you get close and allows unlocking and push button start of the car the are coded with.  I am wondering if it is possible to get such a credit card key for any car which already has a more "standard" proximity key with push button start?

You can normally get replacement keys, so why shouldn't you be able to get a credit card shaped one instead even if the original car didn't have a credit card shaped key issued with it?  Or are replacement keys (via third party places) actually sourced and issued directly from the car company concerned?


Cheers.

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  Reply # 1060242 6-Jun-2014 09:14
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You need to talk to the franchise dealership and a car key specialist about this.    I suspect that unless the car maker offers a card style key, then you're probably out of luck, and stuck with a great lump of prox-key on your key fob.
The car makers have worked very hard to "lock out" non OEM suppliers from the car key business, as there is a lot of free money to be made by the car maker charging hundreds of dollars for a replacement key costing only a few dollars to make, and the franchise dealership charging hundreds more for "coding" the key to match the car (this only takes a few minutes).  
As there were suppliers of software and link cables with which people were able to code keys for older cars with prox keys, the makers are locking the system down so that a 6 digit pin only available to OEM dealerships must be entered to access the key coding function in the ECU.
It's a very cosy arrangement - with the potential to cost car owners dearly for something which might add a little convenience (with some potential pitfalls), but is ultimately nerdy featuritis as it uses great complexity to solve a problem which never really existed. 





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  Reply # 1060368 6-Jun-2014 12:56
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Fred99: You need to talk to the franchise dealership and a car key specialist about this.    I suspect that unless the car maker offers a card style key, then you're probably out of luck, and stuck with a great lump of prox-key on your key fob.
The car makers have worked very hard to "lock out" non OEM suppliers from the car key business, as there is a lot of free money to be made by the car maker charging hundreds of dollars for a replacement key costing only a few dollars to make, and the franchise dealership charging hundreds more for "coding" the key to match the car (this only takes a few minutes).  
As there were suppliers of software and link cables with which people were able to code keys for older cars with prox keys, the makers are locking the system down so that a 6 digit pin only available to OEM dealerships must be entered to access the key coding function in the ECU.
It's a very cosy arrangement - with the potential to cost car owners dearly for something which might add a little convenience (with some potential pitfalls), but is ultimately nerdy featuritis as it uses great complexity to solve a problem which never really existed. 




Had I thought the dealer would give me any sensible info about this then I would have asked them rather than post here.

I guess the rest of your post answers my question though, so thank you.  Conceptually what I am after should be possible, but it looks to be impossible from a realistic sense...


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1060432 6-Jun-2014 15:30
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I work for a large international ag and security company that is based in Hamilton (think orange and electric fences), I don't represent any of their views here at all:

If you can;t find a ready made solution somewhere like eBay, what you are after is entirely possible and easy to make, but most likely prohibitively expensive and somewhat unwieldy for what you want to achieve. The card will be one of many types of smart card and there will be a reader in the car door much like you have a swipe card at your place of work. The systems i work with all work on 12v or 24v but are designed for buildings, so they are based around capacity and probably would take up a lot of space but I don't doubt you'd get a simpler system that is designed for a small installation ready made somewhere like eBay.

Why you'd want one is the real question, apart from looking flash and potentially locking yourself out when your battery goes flat.

The systems I work with can be easily configured to have an action associated with a push button or proximity of the card, such as power a relay or send a txt mesage etc, they are really programmable, but for the most part require a PC to setup and a bit of screwing around would be needed to fit them in a dashboard.

Here is a starting point for your research, I'd see if you can find a security company like Concord to speak to, as we don't deal direct, we get our third party stuff from places like:

http://www.saltosystems.com/

http://www.assaabloy.co.nz/en/local/nz/Aperio/Aperio-Technology/

If you want something simpler, I have seen car security systems that take many forms as I'm from South Africa and car theft is a real problem there. Maybe you can give a few examples of things you are looking for and I can ask the techs at work what is possible?

Good luck.



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  Reply # 1060435 6-Jun-2014 15:44
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I think you have totally misunderstood me.

Here is a picture of the key I have and the push button start in both of my cars:



I never have to touch this key in order to unlock my car doors or start the cars (I obviously have two different keys for each of my two cars).  When I get close to my cars with the key on me, I can push a button on the door handle to unlock the car.  Similarly when the key is situated inside the car the car will start by pressing the start button.

Some cars have credit card looking proximity keys instead of keys like the one I pictured above.  They look something like this one below:



This type of key fits in your wallet (admittedly the one above looks quite thick), and works the exact same way as the key pictured at the top.  I was simply wondering if there are any third party solutions which would allow me to get a credit card shaped key for my cars?  My car manufacturer doesn't offer these types of keys.

By the sound of it this will not be possible given what Fred99 said.  It was worth my while asking though. 

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  Reply # 1060436 6-Jun-2014 15:50
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Satch: I think you have totally misunderstood me.

Here is a picture of the key I have and the push button start in both of my cars:



I never have to touch this key in order to unlock my car doors or start the cars (I obviously have two different keys for each of my two cars).  When I get close to my cars with the key on me, I can push a button on the door handle to unlock the car.  Similarly when the key is situated inside the car the car will start by pressing the start button.

Some cars have credit card looking proximity keys instead of keys like the one I pictured above.  They look something like this one below:



This type of key fits in your wallet (admittedly the one above looks quite thick), and works the exact same way as the key pictured at the top.  I was simply wondering if there are any third party solutions which would allow me to get a credit card shaped key for my cars?  My car manufacturer doesn't offer these types of keys.

By the sound of it this will not be possible given what Fred99 said.  It was worth my while asking though. 


No, I got you: You have a radio push key and want a smart card with proximity reader and basic controller.

Possible, but expensive and unwieldy unless you can find a car specific solution.

The smart card will be encrypted, when you go near the door, the smartcard will be 'seen and read' by the reader controlled by a controller board that will drive a relay to unlock the door and enable the cars electrics.

Like this but with additional relay board for your starter: http://www.davisnet.com/drive/products/smartcard.asp



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  Reply # 1060439 6-Jun-2014 15:59
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Either we are talking about the same thing and don't realise it, or we are still on a completely different page.

I'm not interested in replacing any of the electronics in my car.  I just wanted to replace my existing key with one shaped like a credit card.  All the rest of the logic is already built into my cars.  If I could roll my existing keys flat with a rolling pin so they would fit into my wallet then that would achieve what I am after.  I would expect the cost of what I want to be the same as getting a replacement key in the current form factor.  But this doesn't look possible.

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  Reply # 1060454 6-Jun-2014 16:38
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Satch: I'm not interested in replacing any of the electronics in my car.  I just wanted to replace my existing key with one shaped like a credit card.


These two points are in conflict.

Your press button uses a radio signal and receiver the smart card uses a chip that requires a reader. They are differnet types of technology and different hardware



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  Reply # 1060456 6-Jun-2014 16:40
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Urrr....

Get a craft knife and get the RF chip things out of your key and then laminate them or what ever. Did that for a Suzuki swift. 

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  Reply # 1060469 6-Jun-2014 17:17
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TimA: Urrr....

Get a craft knife and get the RF chip things out of your key and then laminate them or what ever. Did that for a Suzuki swift. 


The prox cards have active RFID, not passive RFID like a swipe card or some older cars which needed a RFID response form the chip embedded in the pastic at the end of the key, as well as key in the ignition to start.

While butchering and re-mounting the electronics from the active RFID key might be possible, with the horrendous cost of replacement, I don't think I'd be game to try.

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  Reply # 1060470 6-Jun-2014 17:19
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Fred99:
TimA: Urrr....

Get a craft knife and get the RF chip things out of your key and then laminate them or what ever. Did that for a Suzuki swift. 


The prox cards have active RFID, not passive RFID like a swipe card or some older cars which needed a RFID response form the chip embedded in the pastic at the end of the key, as well as key in the ignition to start.

While butchering and re-mounting the electronics from the active RFID key might be possible, with the horrendous cost of replacement, I don't think I'd be game to try.


Dad lost all his Audi keys and had to spend over 1k to get new keys and RFID stuffs.

The swift is $80 per key.


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  Reply # 1060500 6-Jun-2014 18:10
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gundar:
Satch: I'm not interested in replacing any of the electronics in my car.  I just wanted to replace my existing key with one shaped like a credit card.


These two points are in conflict.

Your press button uses a radio signal and receiver the smart card uses a chip that requires a reader. They are differnet types of technology and different hardware




You don't quite understand the OP.

OP car uses proximity keys. He doesn't like his current proximity key as it is bulky. He just want a new proximity key that is thin enough to be left in the wallet.





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  Reply # 1060505 6-Jun-2014 18:22
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nakedmolerat:
gundar:
Satch: I'm not interested in replacing any of the electronics in my car.  I just wanted to replace my existing key with one shaped like a credit card.


These two points are in conflict.

Your press button uses a radio signal and receiver the smart card uses a chip that requires a reader. They are differnet types of technology and different hardware




You don't quite understand the OP.

OP car uses proximity keys. He doesn't like his current proximity key as it is bulky. He just want a new proximity key that is thin enough to be left in the wallet.


And the buttons are just there to lock/unlock if you're further away, want to let kids open the doors before you get to the "touch" part of the door etc. 

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  Reply # 1060578 6-Jun-2014 21:37
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Buy a Renault :P

The last 2 Renaults I owned both came with handsfree keys


As long as you have the key on your person (in your pocket, backpack, wherever), as soon as you touch the door handle the car will open.
Same thing with the start button. If the keycard is not in the car the car won't start
Walk away from the car and it automatically locks.

Only downsides to this system:
when filling up at the petrol station you always need to keep a door slightly open, because if you close the door it may shut when you walk away towards the hose and you can't open the petrol flap
if you have the unfortunate situation where you have a garage/carport next to your lounge area where you keep your keys your car may still be unlocked whilst having the keys inside the house




Gigabit


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  Reply # 1061302 8-Jun-2014 16:20
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a similar tale was doing the rounds years ago about a wealthy mercedes owner who had a fancy model with keyless entry doodah.

he got a shock one day when he returned to his car to find it unlocked.

apparently he kept the spare proximity key in the glovebox.

money-mouth


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  Reply # 1061477 8-Jun-2014 20:56
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It won't lock if the transponder is in the glove box or anywhere inside the car.

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