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ckc

ckc
321 posts

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  #1177175 17-Nov-2014 09:51
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Found On Road Dying.

sxz

sxz

699 posts

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  #1177192 17-Nov-2014 10:01
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ckc: When you lose power, does the engine rev high?


Now I'm second guessing myself.  Yes I think it does - it feels like something has momentarily disengaged, so the engine does rev high.  At that point however I usually lift off or engage the clutch, then the car is back to normal, 100% awesome car.  Makes it very difficult to diagnose when the problem is very hard to replicate.

 
 
 
 


sxz

sxz

699 posts

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  #1177194 17-Nov-2014 10:02
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riahon: Have you changed the gearbox oil, paying special attention to the old oil for bits of metal. To me it sounds like a synchro is letting go. I would expect some gold coloured metal specks in the oil.


No I haven't - I wouldn't know how.  I presume the Ford dealer would have checked this, but I suppose that may be asking too much...

I don't feel like it's the gear box because 99% of the time it's the best gear box I've ever had.  That's why I suspected the diff, as I think it's something that is directly connected to the gearbox and not the gearbox itself.  

sxz

sxz

699 posts

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  #1177195 17-Nov-2014 10:03
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Dingbatt: Sounds like a visit to a gearbox specialist might bear more fruit than your local Ford dealership. 


Yes I think I will need to do this...

Dingbatt: OP. Do modern front wheel drive vehicles have differentials? I know they need something to get round corners but not sure how they achieve it.


Yeah I see them on Amazon for $1500 :(

sxz

sxz

699 posts

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  #1177196 17-Nov-2014 10:04
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scuwp: My money is on transmission, and if the Ford dealer can't handle it I would look at contacting a transmission specialist.
 
Some Fords just have idiosyncrasies like this also.  We had a fleet of Fords at work and not one drove the same as the next, some with some very weird behavior.  The "we can't find anything wrong" from the Ford dealer was very common.

Some of the reasons I will never buy a Ford again.



I've actually heard this a bit (after buying the car).  Which sucks - it's the best car I've ever driven.

sxz

sxz

699 posts

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  #1177197 17-Nov-2014 10:05
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ckc: Found On Road Dying.


Fixed Or Repaired Daily.

RunningMan
6139 posts

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  #1177222 17-Nov-2014 10:23
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First On Race Day

 
 
 
 


ckc

ckc
321 posts

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  #1177243 17-Nov-2014 10:47
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sxz:
ckc: When you lose power, does the engine rev high?


Now I'm second guessing myself.  Yes I think it does - it feels like something has momentarily disengaged, so the engine does rev high.  At that point however I usually lift off or engage the clutch, then the car is back to normal, 100% awesome car.  Makes it very difficult to diagnose when the problem is very hard to replicate.


I would guess at the clutch then. When clutches slip they rev high and then the revs decrease as the plates finally grab and the transmission connects to the engine. The same can happen if the hydraulic system that controls the clutch has an issue. If, for some reason, the master cylinder disengages the clutch during normal driving, but when you intervene with the pedals in some way it re-engages, then that could potentially cause those symptoms.

I want to make sure we're on the same page, because this is a point that causes confusion - when you say engage the clutch, you mean taking your foot off the clutch pedal? Pressing it down (disengaging) and then releasing it again (engaging)?

sxz

sxz

699 posts

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  #1177250 17-Nov-2014 10:50
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ckc: 

I want to make sure we're on the same page, because this is a point that causes confusion - when you say engage the clutch, you mean taking your foot off the clutch pedal? Pressing it down (disengaging) and then releasing it again (engaging)?


I push the clutch in.  So I'm just driving normally up or down a hill, going around a corner, and every now and then the clunking/grinding happens.  So I worry about damage, lift off the accelerator and push the clutch pedal in.  Clunking stops, I go back into gear, car is fine again.  Might not happen again for another 30 minutes or more.  

ckc

ckc
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  #1177272 17-Nov-2014 11:13
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sxz:

I push the clutch in.  So I'm just driving normally up or down a hill, going around a corner, and every now and then the clunking/grinding happens.  So I worry about damage, lift off the accelerator and push the clutch pedal in.  Clunking stops, I go back into gear, car is fine again.  Might not happen again for another 30 minutes or more.  


Okay, when you push the clutch in you're separating the plates that connect the engine and the transmission, so that's disengaging. When you release the pedal those plates are coming together, so engaging.

My guess would be that there's an issue with your hydraulic system or the springs that operate it.

Main dealers are terrible mechanics. I have friends who work for main dealers, who've worked for several, and I wouldn't take my car to a dealership if they were the ones paying me. Get a real mechanic - that is, someone who's paid to fix things rather than service things and who depends on people recommending him rather than trading on a brand - to have a look at the clutch linkage (return spring) and hydraulics. I would guess at hydraulics - you don't mention issues with pedal feel and when you pump the pedal the pressure returns to the system.

Interesting stuff: most modern cars with hydraulic clutches don't actually have a return spring. They depend on the hydraulics in the clutch system to return the clutch pedal to the up position. However, the Ford Focus does, which is why the return spring could be good, means you retain pedal feel but you still have hydraulic issues.

riahon
938 posts

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  #1177283 17-Nov-2014 11:51
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I am not convinced it is the clutch as 'clunking' and 'grinding' noises don't really add up to me as being related to the hydraulics or clutch I would expect this issue would be easy to replicate if it was hydraulics or clutch. I do however would agree at least getting it checked out as it would be the easiest to check and at least eliminate as the cause. Happy to be proven wrong (as will the OP as this would be cheaper than a gearbox overhaul) but my guess is a gear synchro letting go. 

Does the gear lever "fall out" of gear when this happens? 

Coil
6615 posts

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  #1177286 17-Nov-2014 11:58
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Yeah, I would say a transmission fault. Please don;t get any work done on a new Ford at a 3rd party place. Void warranty left right and center and Ford will wiggle out of anything about it. 


Q: What goes on pages 4-5 of the Ford's user's manual?
A: The train & bus schedule.


Q: What do you call a Ford at the top of a Hill?
A: A Miracle



ckc

ckc
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  #1177302 17-Nov-2014 12:19
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riahon: I am not convinced it is the clutch as 'clunking' and 'grinding' noises don't really add up to me as being related to the hydraulics or clutch I would expect this issue would be easy to replicate if it was hydraulics or clutch. I do however would agree at least getting it checked out as it would be the easiest to check and at least eliminate as the cause. Happy to be proven wrong (as will the OP as this would be cheaper than a gearbox overhaul) but my guess is a gear synchro letting go. 

Does the gear lever "fall out" of gear when this happens? 


Synchros wouldn't mean a gear would pop out. Synchros don't hold a gear in place - the shafts hold a gear in place. If a synchro in a gearbox goes, you can still use the gearbox by double de-clutching and the absence of synchromesh on a particular ring wouldn't mean it would pop out of gear. Back in the day, when my grandad first started out as a truckie, boxes in didn't even have synchromesh. Even today reverse gear on most cars doesn't have synchromesh. Boxes that pop out of gear have issues with instability in major components that causes gears to be pushed off the rings.

But sxz has already said the gearbox is fine to use. There is no grinding going in and out of a particular gear, which would be the symptom of worn synchromesh (and not after four years unless it's been constantly abused).

Car problems aren't always easy to replicate exactly when you want it. You can't expect a mechanic to drive a car under exactly the same  conditions for half an hour until you hope the problem returns. And it's especially true with hydraulics, where there are a number of internal and external seals and it's dependent on use and operating pressure. If an issue is intermittent, it may not turn up at all for ages. If your car sometimes has trouble starting, or sometimes produces smoke, that's not an issue you can guarantee will happen when it's in the shop, but it's still an issue that may indicate a fault. Can't tell you how many times I've had a car with a fault that's gone into the mechanic for it not to do it, then stop doing it for 5 days and then start up again.

Also, Ford have a 3 year warranty. My guess is that a 2010 is out of the warranty period and time to stop going to dealers. If I know dealer foremen, they may have even let it slip out of the warranty period to avoid the work.

Bung
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  #1177305 17-Nov-2014 12:23
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ckc: Okay, when you push the clutch in you're separating the plates that connect the engine and the transmission, so that's disengaging. When you release the pedal those plates are coming together, so engaging.

My guess would be that there's an issue with your hydraulic system or the springs that operate it.



When the car is in gear with the clutch released there's no need for hydraulic pressure. Older cars with external slave cylinders acting on a release fork had a free play adjustment to ensure that there was no release pressure on the clutch when the pedal was up.

I think I'd be looking at the selector cable adjustment. Does the problem occur if you leave it in 3rd or 4th?

riahon
938 posts

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  #1177308 17-Nov-2014 12:25
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ckc:
riahon: I am not convinced it is the clutch as 'clunking' and 'grinding' noises don't really add up to me as being related to the hydraulics or clutch I would expect this issue would be easy to replicate if it was hydraulics or clutch. I do however would agree at least getting it checked out as it would be the easiest to check and at least eliminate as the cause. Happy to be proven wrong (as will the OP as this would be cheaper than a gearbox overhaul) but my guess is a gear synchro letting go. 

Does the gear lever "fall out" of gear when this happens? 


Synchros wouldn't mean a gear would pop out. Synchros don't hold a gear in place - the shafts hold a gear in place. If a synchro in a gearbox goes, you can still use the gearbox by double de-clutching and the absence of synchromesh on a particular ring wouldn't mean it would pop out of gear. Back in the day, when my grandad first started out as a truckie, boxes in didn't even have synchromesh. Even today reverse gear on most cars doesn't have synchromesh. Boxes that pop out of gear have issues with instability in major components that causes gears to be pushed off the rings.

But sxz has already said the gearbox is fine to use. There is no grinding going in and out of a particular gear, which would be the symptom of worn synchromesh (and not after four years unless it's been constantly abused).

Car problems aren't always easy to replicate exactly when you want it. You can't expect a mechanic to drive a car under exactly the same  conditions for half an hour until you hope the problem returns. And it's especially true with hydraulics, where there are a number of internal and external seals and it's dependent on use and operating pressure. If an issue is intermittent, it may not turn up at all for ages. If your car sometimes has trouble starting, or sometimes produces smoke, that's not an issue you can guarantee will happen when it's in the shop, but it's still an issue that may indicate a fault. Can't tell you how many times I've had a car with a fault that's gone into the mechanic for it not to do it, then stop doing it for 5 days and then start up again.

Also, Ford have a 3 year warranty. My guess is that a 2010 is out of the warranty period and time to stop going to dealers. If I know dealer foremen, they may have even let it slip out of the warranty period to avoid the work.


Chill............just my 2c as a qualified mechanic (although many years off the tools) 



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