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  # 1327909 19-Jun-2015 16:13
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MikeAqua: I'm seriously interested in the idea of an electric boat project.  Most of the electric boats in the US are flat water boats that operate at low speeds.  There are water bodies in the US that don't allow hydrocarbon powered boats.  There are excellent oil cooled stainless housing motors available and marinised battery packs.  You can get electric outboards up to about 80HP.

There are a few substantial issues to be resolved for the fast planing hulls we typically use in NZ though: -
Battery weight - petrol/diesel (or an empty fuel tank) is lighter than the water it displaces.  A battery is not. This reduces the ability of a boat to float when swamped - an important safety feature, which  must be overcome with more buoyancy foam.  this adds weight along with buoyancy.
Battery durability - will a battery withstand the pounding motion of a planing boat on a choppy day?  A suspension system will add weight.
Recharging - a car will recharge when braking, no such option in a boat with current technology.  A bigger battery per engine kW is therefore needed.
Electric field - will there be an inductive field from the motor/battery? If yes will this accelerate corrosion of metals especially aluminum?
Run flat risk - How predictable/measurable is battery drain? 

There are some pros for an electric boat: -
- Quiet (good for fishing)
- Clean
- Simple/reliable/low maintenance
- Could recharge with solar and maybe even deploy a wind-gen when at rest.
- Stable weight distribution.  The battery will have a constant weight  -unlike a fuel tank which lightens as fuel is burnt requiring trim adjustment.
- Low centre of gravity



Components for EVs and Boats
I've done research on EVs suppliers last year again - a lot of options with motors and control boards are made in US. Those same components are used in EVs and Electrical Boats.
For New Zealand Electrical Boats for recreation could be even more appealing than EVs.
Local search brings couple of companies in Auckland who seems to be onto it already - offering re-selling of components from overseas.



My thought would be to forgo the concept of a planing hull, and perhaps consider a catamaran design of some kind.
You've also made me think about the fact that there's 600kg of lead in the stub keel of my trailer yacht - and I really only need 7KW for short durations.  Charging would be an issue though - even for that small HP.

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  # 1328115 19-Jun-2015 22:06
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MikeAqua: I'm seriously interested in the idea of an electric boat project. .....
........
........
Run flat risk - How predictable/measurable is battery drain?
.......
.....

Good BMS and you'll just be fine...
e.g. do regular (monthly) maintenance/check - from full charge to depletion for remaining capacity.
12 extra cycles during the year although degrades the battery - will provide peace of mind.



 
 
 
 


dwl

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  # 1328198 20-Jun-2015 08:56
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RUKI: Would be also interesting to get quote from Nissan and Toyota for the battery pack replacement. Unfortunately they would not do it without rego.

If anyone has NZ rego of Leaf or Prius Plug-In - could we kindly ask you to get quote for traction battery replacement - battery & labour separately?

I may be able to persuade an owner to ask (PM if you still want this) but the price in the US has been fairly clearly stated.  Of course we may get different local pricing, especially with the plummeting NZ-USD which may push the price (with GST) towards or even over NZ$10k with local markup.  While this might apply for the few current owners, it is the technology over the next few years that will also be relevant with the MY 2016 Leaf having a 30 kWh option and better able to take high heat (was an issue in Arizona).

There is a lot of info at MyNissanLeaf with a specific thread update on battery replacements which starts with statement:
Battery replacements are now available for purchase at your certified Nissan LEAF dealers in the United States. The suggested retail price of the Nissan LEAF battery pack is $5,499. This price includes and requires a return of your original battery pack (valued at $1,000) to the dealer in exchange for the new battery. This price does not include tax, installation fees or an installation kit required for 2011 and 2012 vehicles. The MSRP for the installation kit (which includes brackets and other minor parts required to retrofit the newer pack to original vehicles) is approximately $225. Nissan expects the installation to take about three hours. However, dealers set the final pricing, so we recommend confirming with your local retailer.


In terms of charge cycles, there is a positive thread about 100k miles and 12 bars which talks abut taxi use and fast charging (probably fairly kind as don't go beyond 80%) :
The Nissan LEAF that sparked an electric taxi revolution in Cornwall has clocked up its 100,000th mile without losing a single bar of battery life*.
‘Wizzy' as it was named by St Austell-based operators C&C Taxis, hit the milestone in the course of more than 25,000 pure electric paying fares and having been rapid charged over 1,700 times.
The distance it's covered since entering service in July 2013 is equivalent to 100 round trips from the company's base in Cornwall to Glasgow, more than four times around the world or almost half the distance to the moon.
But, despite living the same punishing life as any modern day taxi, Wizzy retains near full battery health and, incredibly, is still on its first set of brake pads...




dwl

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  # 1328393 20-Jun-2015 16:46
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linw: What would scare me is having a huge Li battery charging in my internal garage every night. Have you seen the fires from MUCH smaller radio control Lipo batteries? 

While petrol would also make a helluva bomb, at least you haven't got someone playing with a cigarette lighter around it all night!

There were news reports, especially during 2013 about fires in EVs or PHEVs, either in garages or after an accident.  Despite increased numbers of EVs and PHEVs on the road since then the number of reports seem to have diminished.

There is a (possibly biased) report EVs safer than gasoline that starts with "The small handful of electric car fires have made some worry whether the cars are safe. Actual indications are that electric cars are safer, from fire, than gasoline cars. Especially when you compare the rate of gasoline car fires to electric car fires."

The chemistry does make a difference and LiFePO4 seems to be safer but there are trade offs like capacity.   The tests I have seen suggest it takes quite a lot to get an automotive battery to burn and I suggest there are multiple other potential fire sources around the home and garage that could be an issue.  Worth noting that the charging systems are high current and poor electrical practices could result in electrical fires attributable to the EV but actually not in the car.

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  # 1328420 20-Jun-2015 17:45
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I travelled in a Tesla from Scotts Valley to San Francisco two days ago. Believe the hype people, those things are freaking awesome! It was the older generation P85+, so it only had a single motor. But it still had the insane instantaneous acceleration of the current model.

Next week, I'll get a chance to go for a spin in an 85D (not the P variant). And provided my rental car passes inspection, the owner may even let me take it for a drive myself. :-)

This car has leapfrogged the 911 Turbo as my "first buy" car when we finally win Lotto.

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  # 1328428 20-Jun-2015 17:59
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Here's a few pics

Click to see full size

Click to see full size

Click to see full size

Click to see full size

Click to see full size

Click to see full size

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  # 1328438 20-Jun-2015 18:27
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robjg63:
I gotta say I agree with this. Really hard to think they couldnt make a cheaper better version if they had a mind to.


Especially considering Tesla have open sourced their tech.

 
 
 
 




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  # 1328499 20-Jun-2015 22:12

dclegg: I travelled in a Tesla from Scotts Valley to San Francisco two days ago. Believe the hype people, those things are freaking awesome! It was the older generation P85+, so it only had a single motor. But it still had the insane instantaneous acceleration of the current model.

Next week, I'll get a chance to go for a spin in an 85D (not the P variant). And provided my rental car passes inspection, the owner may even let me take it for a drive myself. :-)

This car has leapfrogged the 911 Turbo as my "first buy" car when we finally win Lotto.


That's really something.  My first ride in a Tesla is years away I think. 

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  # 1328525 20-Jun-2015 23:22
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dclegg: Believe the hype people, those things are freaking awesome!


Yip, I second that. I drove a non-performance model S in San Francisco and it was pretty awesome. Acceleration was really powerful, and silky smooth. Not having gears changing / needing to be changed is really nice... Floor it and it goes instantly, none of this pause for gear change, then go that you get on a normal car.

dclegg: It was the older generation P85+, so it only had a single motor. But it still had the insane instantaneous acceleration of the current model.


The current performance model (the P85D) is quite a bit faster than the P85+

0-60mph times:

 

  • Model S 60 : 5.9 seconds (no longer available
  • Model S 85 : 5.4 seconds
  • Model S 70D : 5.2 seconds
  • Model S 85D: 4.4 seconds
  • Model S P85 : 4.2 seconds (no longer available)
  • Model S P85D: 3.1 seconds

I drove the second one on the list, and found it really fast... (My daily driver is a corolla, but I had been driving a Dodge Challenger v6 before driving the tesla)


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  # 1328538 21-Jun-2015 00:20
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MikeAqua: I'm seriously interested in the idea of an electric boat project.


While it is technically possible to build a wide range of capable electric boats. I think there are only quite limited situations where a recreational electric boat will make sense.

One of the key issues is that most recreational boaties get out as much as they would like, hence don't use enough petrol to pay off the expensive batteries.

That said if you are an enthusiast, and are prepared to part with some coin to build a sweet rig go for it.

Key issue you hit up against with boats is that, compared to cars, engines are run fairly hard.

A typical car will have around an 80kW engine, and will require around 15 kW to cruse at open road speeds. The rest of the power is in reserve for accelerating & ascending hills.

Acceleration & hills aren't really an issue for boats, (nor are speed limits), hence most boats cruse at around 75% of maximum power. For example a 5.5m planing runabout would have a similar size engine as the car (say 80kW), but would need to use around 60kW to cruse at 40 - 50 kmph. A 10m displacement yacht (efficient hull shape for sailing) might have a 10kW engine, and use 8kW to curse at 12kmph.

If you were to run the with a nissan leaf sized battery (24kWh), it would get you around 1.5 hours driving in a car, (or around 120 - 140km), In the runabout you would get about 24 minutes (or 16 to 20km) of boating. In the Yacht, you would get just over 2 hours motoring, but it would only take you around 24km. Of course you actual usable range is lower as you need to keep some energy in reserve as a safety margin to ensure your not stranded.

In terms of boating I can see the following situations being useful:


 

  • Electric motor for a dinghy: Many boats are stored on moorings, and owners use small dingies to go to them. Many have small (often 2hp) outboards to go out to their larger boat. An electric outboard would be ideal for this: - it's a known (fairly short) distance, - small irregularly used petrol engines are a real pain/expense to maintain, - Buying, and mixing 2 stroke fuel can be a inconvenient.
  • A long, skinny displacement boat (catamaran etc). displacement means weight is less of an issue, Could use a bank of lead acid batteries salvaged from a commercial UPS or similar.
  • When I was doing a regatta in Balboa (Near Newport Beach, California many of the mansions on Newport bay had little electric boats. The bay had a 5knot speed limit, and distances where short, so they looked ideal for trips to friends mansions, Restaurants and the yacht club.
  • Areas where petrol/diesel engines are banned (some lakes)
  • For very low speed trawling use.
  • Commercial use with a regular use pattern.
Check out:

http://www.torqeedo.com/en

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  # 1328546 21-Jun-2015 01:11
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You guys have got me all excited about that outlander PHEV
Except looking at the specifications I dont know if it can come near the Korando I drive now.
And thats highly annoying - I want something electric but wont change unless it feels like it has a bit of power when i put down my foot.
The korando is not super fast like a v8 commodore, but its much better than a typical 2 litre petrol.

Diesel Korando: 129kw @ 4000rpm + 360 Nm @ 2000rpm + 0-100 in
Outlander PHEV: 80kw + 332 Nm

So both have similar torques, but one has only 60% of the horsepowers, yet both claim 0-100 in about 9.5-10 seconds.

What do you guys think?





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dwl

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  # 1328567 21-Jun-2015 08:21
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raytaylor: You guys have got me all excited about that outlander PHEV
Except looking at the specifications I dont know if it can come near the Korando I drive now.
And thats highly annoying - I want something electric but wont change unless it feels like it has a bit of power when i put down my foot.
The korando is not super fast like a v8 commodore, but its much better than a typical 2 litre petrol.

Diesel Korando: 129kw @ 4000rpm + 360 Nm @ 2000rpm + 0-100 in
Outlander PHEV: 80kw + 332 Nm

So both have similar torques, but one has only 60% of the horsepowers, yet both claim 0-100 in about 9.5-10 seconds.

What do you guys think?

It depends on how much you load the vehicle and how often you actually use the full power and would miss that.  The 0-100 times are showing a lightly loaded case and may represent a typical impression of the vehicle.   

If you load it up with 5 people, put a trailer on the back weighing max of 750kg (max NZ rating for Outlander, 1500kg overseas) and make use of the gears to extract the 129kW then I think the Korando will perform noticeably better.  The Korando diesel has a 2000kg tow rating and would probably be able to haul that weight up a long hill without asking for a rest. 

For many people who tend to not use the full SUV load capacity I think the two could seem quite similar and I think Mitsubisihi have done a great job with this PHEV.  I could probably live with not having the peak power for the other benefits unless that tow rating was an issue.  Go for a test drive and see what you think.

dwl

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  # 1328571 21-Jun-2015 08:44
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Scott3:
MikeAqua: I'm seriously interested in the idea of an electric boat project.
While it is technically possible to build a wide range of capable electric boats. I think there are only quite limited situations where a recreational electric boat will make sense.

Good summary.  I think one of the key strengths of electric for low speed boating is the issue you mentioned of infrequent use.  Nothing worse than old stale fuel where with a quality small solar charger the battery should remain healthy and ready to go. 

dwl

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  # 1328574 21-Jun-2015 09:10
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Scott3:
dclegg: Believe the hype people, those things are freaking awesome!


Yip, I second that. I drove a non-performance model S in San Francisco and it was pretty awesome. Acceleration was really powerful, and silky smooth. Not having gears changing / needing to be changed is really nice... Floor it and it goes instantly, none of this pause for gear change, then go that you get on a normal car.

dclegg: It was the older generation P85+, so it only had a single motor. But it still had the insane instantaneous acceleration of the current model.

Elon Musk has done a fantastic job with the Tesla and it is a world class luxury car.  The weight is getting up there with the S85 starting around 2.1 tonnes and the P85D over 2.2 tonnes which makes the insane acceleration even more impressive.

In the same class of vehicles I can't afford or justify are conversions now available for your favourite car to get even more "insane" performance.  The prototype is based on a '68 Mustang and last weekend this road legal car went to the track against a P85D - from Zombie 222:
New Zombie records set Friday at San Antonio in a head to head race with Tesla P85D.
0-60 in 1.94 seconds. 1/8 mile is 6.7 at 111 mph and 1/4 is 10.24 at 140.8 mph

That package was labelled the Apocalypse with Armagedon not yet developed!  There are video links in twitter feed on the page. 

This is extreme motorsports territory but shows how EVs already have found a niche to match or better internal combustion in terms of power.  Unfortunately for range we have a way to go to match that energy storage provided by fossil fuels.

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  # 1328580 21-Jun-2015 09:28
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Scott3: 

Acceleration & hills aren't really an issue for boats, (nor are speed limits), hence most boats cruse at around 75% of maximum power. For example a 5.5m planing runabout would have a similar size engine as the car (say 80kW), but would need to use around 60kW to cruse at 40 - 50 kmph. A 10m displacement yacht (efficient hull shape for sailing) might have a 10kW engine, and use 8kW to curse at 12kmph.



I don't think the estimate of of 80% of full power to maintain a reasonable cruise speed (at just below hull speed) for an efficient displacement hull is correct.  My guess is that (in ideal conditions) it will be closer to 20% than 80%.  The problem is however that with a boat, you don't want to be limited to "ideal" conditions for either range or power (ie to make way against wind or sea), so need plenty in reserve (power and fuel).



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