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  # 1410469 21-Oct-2015 12:54
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DizzyD: 

But I as a taxpayer will rather pay something towards tolls if it means me getting to my destination faster/or on improved infrastructure. Transmission Gully is an excellent example, I will quiet happily fork out to make use of it. 

Its all about choice. Nobody is forcing anybody to use the new road. And its only those that appreciate the new infrastructure that are contributing to it. Not all taxpayers as you have applied. 

Besides. You implying that all PPP infrastructure results in tolls. That is also incorrect.


Internationally, the experience is that PPP = tolls. That you can say it doesn't belies the many examples that already exist in Australia, the US, the UK, and so on. And you kind of missed the point (again) that the problem is that PPPs cost all taxpayers more because the price ends up being too high, not enough people use them, and the taxpayer (i.e. one of the partners) is expected to compensate the private company for their losses (or the taxpayer has to step in and clean up the mess at ridiculous expense when the private partner goes bankrupt - key examples being the AirportLinkM7 Consortium and the Clem Jones Tunnel Consortiums in Brisbane). And don't get me started on how even after the infrastructure is paid for, the private company manages to extend their "ownership" of the asset (example the Gateway Bridge in Brisbane, and the Sydney Harbour Tunnel).

All taxpayers pay for PPPs, not just the ones that use them. Less PPPs, not more.


DizzyD:

This does sound expensive. Can you please back this one up. And from where to where are you driving? And, have you made a comparison with another form of transport? Or tried a different route maybe?


The route is through two tunnels that were built by consortiums that went bankrupt. Both of them bailed out by taxpayers. One of them now operated by the receivers, the other by Transurban, the publicly traded monopoly on toll roads in Australia (and I'm sure they're looking at NZ with the NZTA's new direction on road building).

graemeh:

Sounds like Sydney, I've heard that complaint about driving there.


Brisbane actually. But coming from Auckland where you can freely get from one side of the city to the other on taxpayer funded roads to Brisbane where you pay $25 to get from one side of the city to the other on taxpayer funded roads, it's extremely aggravating.

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  # 1410892 22-Oct-2015 09:59
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scuwp:
DizzyD:
nzkiwiman:
mdooher:
nzkiwiman:

Of course, its not a nice long drive without some inappropriate driving - managed to do my fastest speed (170km) on a passing lane outside of Ashburton. 


OMG and you are still alive? How is this possible? Didn't you come close to losing control? Didn't the other motorists freak out? I don't believe its even possible  to reach these speeds on New Zealand roads.


Clearly I am still alive
No hint of stabilisation issues with the car at that speed - unlike my old car which at 145km (or higher) started to twitch.


170km/h is really fast for NZ roads. Bad roads/Really bad other drivers with the "I was here first/don't overtake me" mentality. IMO thats what causes most of our crashes. 

230km/h though on Germany's Autobahn is like a Sundays drive. Been there done that, bought the TShirt and mug!

I blame our bad roads for the high amount of deaths in NZ, Per Capita 7.4 people out of every 100k. Germany has just 4.3. In other words you far safer driving in Germany on the Autoban where in most places no speed limit is enforced. Speed does not kill and sometimes I think that here in NZ we are just waisting our time with all the enforcements, and extra road policing. That money could be better spent on better roads, which will do a far better job at reducing our very high road death toll. 


Perfect roads are expensive to build and maintain.  If we had a 5 star highway all over NZ the country would be broke.  

Road safety is joint responsibility, there is no silver bullet.  We need good drivers, operating good cars, on good roads.   Education & enforcement is needed for the first one, vehicle safety standards are always developing (although NZ's average car fleet at about 13 years from memory doesn't help that much), and better highways are being built all the time with safety design standards upgrading on many existing roads.


This is true but we do not really have perfect roads ANYWHERE, much less all over the country.

I'd like to see a new modern highway, dual carriage way on the entire length, designed for a 120kmh limit, running from Auckland to Wellington and Picton to Christchurch.

I'd happily devote all the money we waste on sports events etc to paying for it too.





 
 
 
 


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  # 1410903 22-Oct-2015 10:07
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Geektastic:
scuwp:
DizzyD:
nzkiwiman:
mdooher:
nzkiwiman:

Of course, its not a nice long drive without some inappropriate driving - managed to do my fastest speed (170km) on a passing lane outside of Ashburton. 


OMG and you are still alive? How is this possible? Didn't you come close to losing control? Didn't the other motorists freak out? I don't believe its even possible  to reach these speeds on New Zealand roads.


Clearly I am still alive
No hint of stabilisation issues with the car at that speed - unlike my old car which at 145km (or higher) started to twitch.


170km/h is really fast for NZ roads. Bad roads/Really bad other drivers with the "I was here first/don't overtake me" mentality. IMO thats what causes most of our crashes. 

230km/h though on Germany's Autobahn is like a Sundays drive. Been there done that, bought the TShirt and mug!

I blame our bad roads for the high amount of deaths in NZ, Per Capita 7.4 people out of every 100k. Germany has just 4.3. In other words you far safer driving in Germany on the Autoban where in most places no speed limit is enforced. Speed does not kill and sometimes I think that here in NZ we are just waisting our time with all the enforcements, and extra road policing. That money could be better spent on better roads, which will do a far better job at reducing our very high road death toll. 


Perfect roads are expensive to build and maintain.  If we had a 5 star highway all over NZ the country would be broke.  

Road safety is joint responsibility, there is no silver bullet.  We need good drivers, operating good cars, on good roads.   Education & enforcement is needed for the first one, vehicle safety standards are always developing (although NZ's average car fleet at about 13 years from memory doesn't help that much), and better highways are being built all the time with safety design standards upgrading on many existing roads.


This is true but we do not really have perfect roads ANYWHERE, much less all over the country.

I'd like to see a new modern highway, dual carriage way on the entire length, designed for a 120kmh limit, running from Auckland to Wellington and Picton to Christchurch.

I'd happily devote all the money we waste on sports events etc to paying for it too.


waste money on sports.... oh no you didn't just say that, here............. shields up :P




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1410920 22-Oct-2015 10:18
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MikeB4:
Geektastic:
scuwp:
DizzyD:
nzkiwiman:
mdooher:
nzkiwiman:

Of course, its not a nice long drive without some inappropriate driving - managed to do my fastest speed (170km) on a passing lane outside of Ashburton. 


OMG and you are still alive? How is this possible? Didn't you come close to losing control? Didn't the other motorists freak out? I don't believe its even possible  to reach these speeds on New Zealand roads.


Clearly I am still alive
No hint of stabilisation issues with the car at that speed - unlike my old car which at 145km (or higher) started to twitch.


170km/h is really fast for NZ roads. Bad roads/Really bad other drivers with the "I was here first/don't overtake me" mentality. IMO thats what causes most of our crashes. 

230km/h though on Germany's Autobahn is like a Sundays drive. Been there done that, bought the TShirt and mug!

I blame our bad roads for the high amount of deaths in NZ, Per Capita 7.4 people out of every 100k. Germany has just 4.3. In other words you far safer driving in Germany on the Autoban where in most places no speed limit is enforced. Speed does not kill and sometimes I think that here in NZ we are just waisting our time with all the enforcements, and extra road policing. That money could be better spent on better roads, which will do a far better job at reducing our very high road death toll. 


Perfect roads are expensive to build and maintain.  If we had a 5 star highway all over NZ the country would be broke.  

Road safety is joint responsibility, there is no silver bullet.  We need good drivers, operating good cars, on good roads.   Education & enforcement is needed for the first one, vehicle safety standards are always developing (although NZ's average car fleet at about 13 years from memory doesn't help that much), and better highways are being built all the time with safety design standards upgrading on many existing roads.


This is true but we do not really have perfect roads ANYWHERE, much less all over the country.

I'd like to see a new modern highway, dual carriage way on the entire length, designed for a 120kmh limit, running from Auckland to Wellington and Picton to Christchurch.

I'd happily devote all the money we waste on sports events etc to paying for it too.


waste money on sports.... oh no you didn't just say that, here............. shields up :P


Meh - which would benefit NZ more for the next 50 years? A rugby world cup and a few sailing events etc or the new road..?! I don't suppose the sports money would pay for the entire road project but it would be a useful repurposing of the funds.





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  # 1410940 22-Oct-2015 10:39
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Geektastic: 

Meh - which would benefit NZ more for the next 50 years? A rugby world cup and a few sailing events etc or the new road..?! I don't suppose the sports money would pay for the entire road project but it would be a useful repurposing of the funds.


No not the sports! Personally I would rather attack the $28.2 billion a year on Social security and welfare.

At least the tax payer gets some benefit when his taxmoney is spent on sports.


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  # 1410951 22-Oct-2015 10:42
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DizzyD:
Geektastic: 

Meh - which would benefit NZ more for the next 50 years? A rugby world cup and a few sailing events etc or the new road..?! I don't suppose the sports money would pay for the entire road project but it would be a useful repurposing of the funds.


No not the sports! Personally I would rather attack the $28.2 billion a year on Social security and welfare.

At least the tax payer gets some benefit when his taxmoney is spent on sports.



The tax payer gets a lot of benefit from the welfare system. Without it many times in our history and recent history NZ would have been in dire straits with out it and there would have been considerably more people
needing it.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1410952 22-Oct-2015 10:43
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Geektastic:
Meh - which would benefit NZ more for the next 50 years? A rugby world cup and a few sailing events etc or the new road..?! I don't suppose the sports money would pay for the entire road project but it would be a useful repurposing of the funds.


I kinda agree with you, especially with Americas cup and the excesses of the 2011 World Cup.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1411058 22-Oct-2015 12:30
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MikeB4:
DizzyD:
Geektastic: 

Meh - which would benefit NZ more for the next 50 years? A rugby world cup and a few sailing events etc or the new road..?! I don't suppose the sports money would pay for the entire road project but it would be a useful repurposing of the funds.


No not the sports! Personally I would rather attack the $28.2 billion a year on Social security and welfare.

At least the tax payer gets some benefit when his taxmoney is spent on sports.



The tax payer gets a lot of benefit from the welfare system. Without it many times in our history and recent history NZ would have been in dire straits with out it and there would have been considerably more people
needing it.


can you explain where my benefit from the welfare system comes from?

and the sporting events thing, that would get you about 10km or so of highway

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  # 1411064 22-Oct-2015 12:38
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DizzyD:
Geektastic: 

Meh - which would benefit NZ more for the next 50 years? A rugby world cup and a few sailing events etc or the new road..?! I don't suppose the sports money would pay for the entire road project but it would be a useful repurposing of the funds.


No not the sports! Personally I would rather attack the $28.2 billion a year on Social security and welfare.

At least the tax payer gets some benefit when his taxmoney is spent on sports.



I get no benefit from spending money on sports as far as I can see. I would get benefit from spending it on a decent road...





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  # 1411787 23-Oct-2015 13:09
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How often do you drive from Auckland to Wellington, let alone to Christchurch? Trucks may do, but surely an investment in coastal shipping and rail infrastructure would be of far more benefit than a four lane highway the length of the country, especially given this would occur during a period of climate charge awareness and potentially dwindling oil supplies.

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  # 1411791 23-Oct-2015 13:12
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wsnz: How often do you drive from Auckland to Wellington, let alone to Christchurch? Trucks may do, but surely an investment in coastal shipping and rail infrastructure would be of far more benefit than a four lane highway the length of the country, especially given this would occur during a period of climate charge awareness and potentially dwindling oil supplies.


I don't...because the road is rubbish and flying is quicker and safer, albeit less convenient in a number of ways.

In my former life, I would have thought nothing of driving that distance for either business or personal reasons, simply because there were fast, good roads amply supplied with regular Motorway Services for fuel, food and rest purposes. Were that the case between any of these points I would certainly do so. In fact I drive to Chch usually between 5 and 10 times a year.







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  # 1411811 23-Oct-2015 13:38
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wsnz: How often do you drive from Auckland to Wellington, let alone to Christchurch? Trucks may do, but surely an investment in coastal shipping and rail infrastructure would be of far more benefit than a four lane highway the length of the country, especially given this would occur during a period of climate charge awareness and potentially dwindling oil supplies.


Rail is hugely expensive and not terribly flexible.  If it made sense to support rail NZ would not have such a large trucking industry.  Rail is best where you have large volumes going from A to B.

I don't know about the costs of coastal shipping but it is even less flexible than rail.  As with rail, if coastal shipping made sense we would not have such a large trucking industry.

Rail and coastal shipping are all old technology whose time has past.

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  # 1411824 23-Oct-2015 13:49
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graemeh: 
Rail and coastal shipping are all old technology whose time has past.


Rail is a really good way to move people and freight. I am surprised that NZ is not investing more in rail. How do you make the argument that rails time has past? Thats certainly not true in other countries.




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  # 1411828 23-Oct-2015 14:00
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jarledb:
graemeh: 
Rail and coastal shipping are all old technology whose time has past.


Rail is a really good way to move people and freight. I am surprised that NZ is not investing more in rail. How do you make the argument that rails time has past? Thats certainly not true in other countries.


Rail's strength is in moving large volumes of freight long distances and moving large volumes of people.

We don't have the population in NZ for passenger rail to make economic sense.  Wellington is almost ideal for rail as the hills mean most people live within a few km at most of a rail line.  Even in Wellington rail has to be heavily subsidised and only works for those passengers who live and near stations on the same train line.

Rail in NZ is best used as a niche freight provider.  It works well for things like large volumes of freight from Auckland to Wellington or from a factory in the Waikato to a port at Tauranga.

Can you identify three countries where rail operates without large government subsidies?

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  # 1412825 23-Oct-2015 14:21
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Jase2985:
MikeB4:
DizzyD:
Geektastic: 

Meh - which would benefit NZ more for the next 50 years? A rugby world cup and a few sailing events etc or the new road..?! I don't suppose the sports money would pay for the entire road project but it would be a useful repurposing of the funds.


No not the sports! Personally I would rather attack the $28.2 billion a year on Social security and welfare.

At least the tax payer gets some benefit when his taxmoney is spent on sports.



The tax payer gets a lot of benefit from the welfare system. Without it many times in our history and recent history NZ would have been in dire straits with out it and there would have been considerably more people
needing it.


can you explain where my benefit from the welfare system comes from?

and the sporting events thing, that would get you about 10km or so of highway


Off topic maybe in a different thread




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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