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579 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1379957 4-Sep-2015 19:36
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Talkiet:
blackjack17:
Talkiet:
jfanning:
Talkiet:
Well, you're not paying any ACC levy for road use for a start :-)

Cheers - N


4
Yes I do, I own a car, I am employed, I purchase petrol for my car, therefore I pay ACC.

But, if as a cyclist I am hit by a car, surely the car ACC levy should cover that?


Fair enough... You are... But are all cyclists? and there are many other reasons it's a good idea (and I am sure many reasons it's a bad idea)

Cheers - N



When I run to work I don't pay ACC.  Why should I pay when I cycle?

How much does ACC pay out in cyclist costs compared to drivers?


You're being disingenuous. Why is it that many people seem to want to pick and choose the components of being a legitimate road user? Want to use the roads, wan to have specific protections in law from other users, are required to obey road rules etc... But nah, not interested in any of the costs. (See excellent point above about cars paying registration per vehicle. I have more than one car... I'm only ever using one at a time on the road... Why should I pay registration for each one?)

No taxation or aggregate funding model (registration, levies) is perfect, and I'm not even really suggesting that cyclists should pay anything/much, certainly nothing like what the registration for a car costs! It's the anonymity of cyclists that annoys me most. If I see an idiot cyclist, there is literally nothing I can do to identify them unless I chase after them and get a photo of their face or ask for ID.

Cheers - N



No I am not being disingenuous 

It is not economical to charge or licence runners so they pay ACC out of general taxes, as do cyclists, walkers etc. 

You are unable to use more than one car at a time but that doesn't prevent your car being used by other people.  This is why cars are licenced rather that people (yes I realise you need a licence to drive a car).

Yes cyclist break the law, I run red lights when it is safe, I do the same when I am running.  I don't when I am driving.  If I make a mistake while running or cycling I am the one that pays physically someone else might pay financially.  If I make a mistake while driving other people pay physically while I suffer financially .

I don't really want to get into the whole you break that law so i should be able to break this law but honestly drivers and cell phones.  A good quarter at drivers at lights are on their phones texting.

579 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 110


  Reply # 1379958 4-Sep-2015 19:37
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nickb800: So the proposed rule would be pretty damn hard to enforce. Could still be useful as a trick up the Police's sleeve for dealing with bad eggs, when they are driving in a generally dangerous or inconsiderate way. Similar to liquor ban areas, or the no cruising zone in Christchurch. Applied with a very generous dose of discretion, but only to people that are being dicks. 

An example would be the small number of idiots who like to purposefully scare cyclists - once when I was biking in a marked cycle lane, a guy went past me at north of 50kmh with one wheel in the cyclelane - inches away from me when there was no need to (4 lane road with minimal traffic). This situation would be easy to deal with under the new law, as the marked cycle lane is a fixed point of reference


This is the intended purpose of the law

 
 
 
 


gzt

8878 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1379971 4-Sep-2015 20:17
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One meter is not enough for large vehicles esp on state highway. The more I consider all the angles of this the more I see why they proposing 1.5 metres. It is just easier to have one rule that covers everything. vs special case for heavy vehicles, special case for 60+, etc. It is simpler and safer.

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  Reply # 1379972 4-Sep-2015 20:23
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blackjack17: [snip]
No I am not being disingenuous 

It is not economical to charge or licence runners so they pay ACC out of general taxes, as do cyclists, walkers etc. 

You are unable to use more than one car at a time but that doesn't prevent your car being used by other people.  This is why cars are licenced rather that people (yes I realise you need a licence to drive a car).

Yes cyclist break the law, I run red lights when it is safe, I do the same when I am running.  I don't when I am driving.  If I make a mistake while running or cycling I am the one that pays physically someone else might pay financially.  If I make a mistake while driving other people pay physically while I suffer financially .

I don't really want to get into the whole you break that law so i should be able to break this law but honestly drivers and cell phones.  A good quarter at drivers at lights are on their phones texting.


SMH.

You're honestly sitting there saying you think you should decide what laws to follow.

That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.

I'm out.

Cheers - N


209 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 19


  Reply # 1380013 4-Sep-2015 21:26
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Talkiet:
blackjack17:
Talkiet:
jfanning:
Talkiet:
Well, you're not paying any ACC levy for road use for a start :-)

Cheers - N


4
Yes I do, I own a car, I am employed, I purchase petrol for my car, therefore I pay ACC.

But, if as a cyclist I am hit by a car, surely the car ACC levy should cover that?


Fair enough... You are... But are all cyclists? and there are many other reasons it's a good idea (and I am sure many reasons it's a bad idea)

Cheers - N



When I run to work I don't pay ACC.  Why should I pay when I cycle?

How much does ACC pay out in cyclist costs compared to drivers?


You're being disingenuous. Why is it that many people seem to want to pick and choose the components of being a legitimate road user? Want to use the roads, wan to have specific protections in law from other users, are required to obey road rules etc... But nah, not interested in any of the costs. (See excellent point above about cars paying registration per vehicle. I have more than one car... I'm only ever using one at a time on the road... Why should I pay registration for each one?)

No taxation or aggregate funding model (registration, levies) is perfect, and I'm not even really suggesting that cyclists should pay anything/much, certainly nothing like what the registration for a car costs! It's the anonymity of cyclists that annoys me most. If I see an idiot cyclist, there is literally nothing I can do to identify them unless I chase after them and get a photo of their face or ask for ID.

Cheers - N



Do you chase car drivers to get their number plate? Haha the way the last sentence reads I can actually imagine you chasing and trying to get a photo of the cyclists.

What's ACC or tax got to do with it (the buffer)?

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  Reply # 1380015 4-Sep-2015 21:35
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groynk: [snip]
Do you chase car drivers to get their number plate? Haha the way the last sentence reads I can actually imagine you chasing and trying to get a photo of the cyclists.

What's ACC or tax got to do with it (the buffer)?


Nope, it's probably captured on my HD dashcam.

Cheers - N


209 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1380036 4-Sep-2015 22:35
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Jase2985:
groynk:
Do you think that it is safe /sensible / reasonable to pass with less than 1/1.5m between you and a cyclist (or any road user)?


Yes when they are riding 2 or more abrest when passing cars on narrow roads, and when they choose not to ride in parking bays between the curb and white line depicting the lane on the road, but not a dedicated cycle lane) on the side of the roads and are already 1.5m out from the curb at that point.

it really is a 2 way street, and those commuting to work are generally good about obeying the rules, those out for a ride with their buddies in large groups couldn't care less about the rules and think they dont apply to them.

i have nothing against cyclists and i am one myself at times, but when i ride with my wife we always ride single file and as close to the curb as possible, and always obey the road code because we want to minimise the risk of being hit by a 1 tonne lump of metal.


Narrow lanes, passing cars, 2 a breast etc... I don't think there's any good excuse to pass dangerously close.
Pass when it is safe to do so.
Big weekend groups, now those certainly must frustrate many drivers. I don't have experience with them in either mode... but safe passing is still the goal for all involved I'd guess?

There are plenty of other complimentary safety improvements (and I'm not sure why only one was picked out from the presumably wide ranging report...) but i just don't see how the buffer zone is a bad idea sorry.

I believe 99% of drivers pass safely by the way.
As already pointed out by others, having it written into law will create extra awareness and provide a tool where required for extreme cases.
I expect it to be enforced about as much as the helmet law or j walking law.

209 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 19


  Reply # 1380039 4-Sep-2015 22:45
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Talkiet:
groynk: [snip]
Do you chase car drivers to get their number plate? Haha the way the last sentence reads I can actually imagine you chasing and trying to get a photo of the cyclists.

What's ACC or tax got to do with it (the buffer)?


Nope, it's probably captured on my HD dashcam.

Cheers - N



Ah, I knew it :)

Ps. I thought you were out ;p

6683 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1380041 4-Sep-2015 22:56
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the lanes are not super narrow but they are wide enough to pass a single cyclist while only just going onto the other side of the road, but when there is multiple cars on the side of the road, no consideration is given to the cars coming up behind them.

are you expected to keep 1.5m from then cyclist when they are riding 1.5m out from the curb for no apparent reason?

i live in an area that cyclists like to frequent in the weekends and some weeknights. id say about 80% of them are inconsiderate and pick and choose what and when the rules apply to them. ive been abused and yelled at many a time because they have been too lazy to slow down/give way at a roundabout and ive almost clipped them, when tooted at they get rather agro. going round other corners they end up in the center of the road because they dont want to slow down, and they ride 3-4 abreast, 1m+ from the curb and expect cars to give them space when passing. ive also been told that they can ride as many abrest as they like, when clearly the road code says otherwise. have also had them ride up with wrong side of the road because they were too lazy to wait at the give way sign and didnt want to unclip, and when i go to turn left and pull over when heading towards them im in the wrong.

but what can i do about them? nothing because i have no way of identifying them, short of following them. there is no accountability for their actions

i know not everyone is like that and i can generally tell whos going to be a c(^% before i get to them.

its just the whole pick and choose when/what rules and i dont think this rule is going to make any difference because the sensible riders will ride as far left as they can and those other cyclists will just end up making it harder for vehicles.

209 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 19


  Reply # 1380042 4-Sep-2015 23:00
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Talkiet:
groynk: [snip]
But to address your serious points:
I think perspective is worthwhile in any discussion. You could try cycling on a quiet road for 10 minutes on nice weekend day sometime? [snip]


I'm over 40 years old and while I don't cycle now, I certainly used to - both for fun and as a regular means of transport. It's not like they are some strange things I have never touched :-)

Cheers - N



Age shouldn't stop you!
But fair enough if you used to ride; I trust your 40 year old's memory still recalls the thrill of youthful close encounters with various shapes and sizes (trailers 😣 eek)

And there are SOME things you should never touch...

Late reply sorry, but had to ;)

3266 posts

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  Reply # 1380043 4-Sep-2015 23:01
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groynk:
Talkiet:
groynk: [snip]
Do you chase car drivers to get their number plate? Haha the way the last sentence reads I can actually imagine you chasing and trying to get a photo of the cyclists.

What's ACC or tax got to do with it (the buffer)?


Nope, it's probably captured on my HD dashcam.

Cheers - N



Ah, I knew it :)

Ps. I thought you were out ;p


It's a bit like kids really... Selective deafness. I'm out for some commenters :-) There's even one commenter that for me is an automatic "Out"... If they post in a thread, I simply won't. So far however this thread is a lot more civil than I expected :-)

Cheers - N


209 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 19


  Reply # 1380054 4-Sep-2015 23:27
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Jase2985: the lanes are not super narrow but they are wide enough to pass a single cyclist while only just going onto the other side of the road, but when there is multiple cars on the side of the road, no consideration is given to the cars coming up behind them.

are you expected to keep 1.5m from then cyclist when they are riding 1.5m out from the curb for no apparent reason?

i live in an area that cyclists like to frequent in the weekends and some weeknights. id say about 80% of them are inconsiderate and pick and choose what and when the rules apply to them. ive been abused and yelled at many a time because they have been too lazy to slow down/give way at a roundabout and ive almost clipped them, when tooted at they get rather agro. going round other corners they end up in the center of the road because they dont want to slow down, and they ride 3-4 abreast, 1m+ from the curb and expect cars to give them space when passing. ive also been told that they can ride as many abrest as they like, when clearly the road code says otherwise. have also had them ride up with wrong side of the road because they were too lazy to wait at the give way sign and didnt want to unclip, and when i go to turn left and pull over when heading towards them im in the wrong.

but what can i do about them? nothing because i have no way of identifying them, short of following them. there is no accountability for their actions

i know not everyone is like that and i can generally tell whos going to be a c(^% before i get to them.

its just the whole pick and choose when/what rules and i dont think this rule is going to make any difference because the sensible riders will ride as far left as they can and those other cyclists will just end up making it harder for vehicles.


High speed roads are trickier due to the greater speed difference, especially when the road is busy both ways, but if there isn't room to pass safely (1.5m apparently) then it's crazy to try it.
 The two high profile cases (from my memory) where this may have saved a life were: the english nurse swerving a car door in mission bay; and a women around taupo wobbling under the pressure of a big truck bearing up past her and scaring her into looking over her shoulder.

Yes it doesn't matter if the cyclist (or scooter, or skateboarder, quad bike or tractor) is right in the middle of the road I don't think its a good idea to pass dangerously close.

The reason they are travelling far from the kurb may not be apparent to you, but it probably exists (at least in their view).
 Try a friendly toot if you are really crawling behind them? they can't really ride around looking backwards.

Now those weekend riders sound really annoying.
Run them down! (sarcasm. don't, just to be clear)
They are probably even worse in their cars.

627 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1380065 5-Sep-2015 01:30
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blackjack17:

No I am not being disingenuous 

It is not economical to charge or licence runners so they pay ACC out of general taxes, as do cyclists, walkers etc. 

You are unable to use more than one car at a time but that doesn't prevent your car being used by other people.  This is why cars are licenced rather that people (yes I realise you need a licence to drive a car).

Yes cyclist break the law, I run red lights when it is safe, I do the same when I am running.  I don't when I am driving.  If I make a mistake while running or cycling I am the one that pays physically someone else might pay financially.  If I make a mistake while driving other people pay physically while I suffer financially .

I don't really want to get into the whole you break that law so i should be able to break this law but honestly drivers and cell phones.  A good quarter at drivers at lights are on their phones texting.


I believe this type of attitude is the reason drivers will forever hate cyclists.

Yes it is the cyclists own life they are risking but they are also putting the life, finance and emotional well being of others on the line every time they are doing something stupid.

Even if the cyclist was found at fault for what has happened the driver will almost always have their entire life turned upside down by the police, media, it will cost them somehow and there will be significant psychological harm done to them.

As for ignoring red lights and other such illegal acts, Why should the driver be forced to decide if he is going to hit you and risk a very high chance of killing your or swerve and risk his own life and that of others but potentially not kill you when you where in the wrong?

Why should someone driving a vehicle be forced to drive on the wrong side of the road to allow for cyclist? Aren't we taught to drive as far left as possible? Something cyclists often seem to ignore with the expectation that they have the right to hold up traffic.

All this for something that the cyclist paid no further charge over the guy who safely walks along the footpath and hops on a bus.




Perpetually undecided.

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  Reply # 1380072 5-Sep-2015 07:09
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groynk:

Yes it doesn't matter if the cyclist (or scooter, or skateboarder, quad bike or tractor) is right in the middle of the road I don't think its a good idea to pass dangerously close.

The reason they are travelling far from the kurb may not be apparent to you, but it probably exists (at least in their view).
 Try a friendly toot if you are really crawling behind them? they can't really ride around looking backwards.

Now those weekend riders sound really annoying.
Run them down! (sarcasm. don't, just to be clear)
They are probably even worse in their cars.


I ride the same roads, and there is not a single reason to ride out from the curb, they choose to because they think that are going to get a puncher, the roads here get swept at least every 2 months and there is little in the way of debris on the side of the road. Ive never had any issues.

the sad thing is im waiting for the day i will hit one and not have a near miss, its bound to happen as the odds catch up, and im 99% sure what if/when i do it wont be my fault.

if they are riding in the middle of the road, you cant call the police to complain as there is no way to identify them. they can complain about cars but cars cant complain about them.



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  Reply # 1380082 5-Sep-2015 08:02
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I'm very much on the side of wanting the government to ban cycling on public roads. Failing that, they need to be registered, licensed, and taxed through the nose. Motorcyclists pay astronomically high ACC levies, why the heck don't cyclists.






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