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1719 posts

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  Reply # 1381065 7-Sep-2015 12:38
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04fuxake: The Dutch got their safe roads because they were sick of kids being killed by cars.  Kiwis just buy bigger and bigger cars and then run them over in our driveways.


This is simplistic.

The Dutch have safe roads because they don't drive on them much. They don't drive much because they have an effective public transport system. They have that mainly because they live in dense housing, so that there are many more people/km, which makes good public transport economically viable, and easier and cheaper than driving a car.



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  Reply # 1381084 7-Sep-2015 13:03
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Most roads are far too narrow, there shouldn't be cyclists on them as if I had to pass them I would be driving into incoming traffic. The worst is when cyclists are next to each other and not behind one another.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1381213 7-Sep-2015 15:29
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frankv:
04fuxake: The Dutch got their safe roads because they were sick of kids being killed by cars.  Kiwis just buy bigger and bigger cars and then run them over in our driveways.


This is simplistic.

The Dutch have safe roads because they don't drive on them much. They don't drive much because they have an effective public transport system. They have that mainly because they live in dense housing, so that there are many more people/km, which makes good public transport economically viable, and easier and cheaper than driving a car.




The Dutch drive a lot. When they change jobs do tend not to up sticks and move house to be closer to work, they commute. A lot of them will use the train but have you ever experienced grid-lock in Holland? It covers a large part of the country every day. Add to that a lot of trucks carrying inter country freight, tourism to the commuters and the roads are very busy.

In Holland parents cannot teach their children to drive and transfer bad habits from one generation to the next, you have to take driving lessons and pass an actual exam (both theory and practical). 

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  Reply # 1381230 7-Sep-2015 15:49
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mdooher:As for councils that put straight through cycle lanes on the left of a left turn lane... they should be locked up for shear stupidity.



Wait, councils DO this? Woah. Here, the bike lane always stretches out to the right of the left turning lane (meaning traffic at 70km/hr has to cross a bicycle lane).

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  Reply # 1381234 7-Sep-2015 15:54
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Kyanar:
mdooher:As for councils that put straight through cycle lanes on the left of a left turn lane... they should be locked up for shear stupidity.



Wait, councils DO this? Woah. Here, the bike lane always stretches out to the right of the left turning lane (meaning traffic at 70km/hr has to cross a bicycle lane).


Yep, Dunedin City Council most certainly does




Matthew


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  Reply # 1381250 7-Sep-2015 16:34
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04fuxake: To be honest..... unless you've actually spent time RIDING a bike (and I include scooters/motorbikes in this) on NZ roads, you are NOT in a position to comment on what should or should not happen, IMO.

Ask yourself this, would you let your kids ride a bike to school or their friends house?  If not, ask yourself why.  It won't be because they don't have registration or insurance or any of the other excuses that get thrown around.  No, it will be because deep down you know the roads aren't safe and *we* let that happen.

The Dutch got their safe roads because they were sick of kids being killed by cars.  Kiwis just buy bigger and bigger cars and then run them over in our driveways.
i ride my motorbike with the assumption that every other road user is out to get me or purely can't see me. In other words I don't put myself in a position that's going to cause me harm, touch wood this gas worked so far. This seems to be the opposite to a lot of cyclists.

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  Reply # 1381262 7-Sep-2015 17:13
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plod:i ride my motorbike with the assumption that every other road user is out to get me or purely can't see me. In other words I don't put myself in a position that's going to cause me harm, touch wood this gas worked so far. This seems to be the opposite to a lot of cyclists.


Same.. I got my motorcycle restricted and full before I ever got my car restricted, and from a very early point I've treated every bastard on the road as if they were actively trying to kill me and taken appropriate precautions.

PS: I also lane split and lane filter :-P




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  Reply # 1381264 7-Sep-2015 17:21
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plod:
04fuxake: To be honest..... unless you've actually spent time RIDING a bike (and I include scooters/motorbikes in this) on NZ roads, you are NOT in a position to comment on what should or should not happen, IMO.

Ask yourself this, would you let your kids ride a bike to school or their friends house?  If not, ask yourself why.  It won't be because they don't have registration or insurance or any of the other excuses that get thrown around.  No, it will be because deep down you know the roads aren't safe and *we* let that happen.

The Dutch got their safe roads because they were sick of kids being killed by cars.  Kiwis just buy bigger and bigger cars and then run them over in our driveways.
i ride my motorbike with the assumption that every other road user is out to get me or purely can't see me. In other words I don't put myself in a position that's going to cause me harm, touch wood this gas worked so far. This seems to be the opposite to a lot of cyclists.

It's called defensive driving (or riding) isn't it? Sounds prudent to me!

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  Reply # 1381327 7-Sep-2015 19:42
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There should be bike lanes on all roads. At least new roads should all be built with bike lanes.

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  Reply # 1381395 7-Sep-2015 20:49
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lNomNoml: Most roads are far too narrow, there shouldn't be cyclists on them as if I had to pass them I would be driving into incoming traffic. The worst is when cyclists are next to each other and not behind one another.


This one just keeps getting repeated... It's a common attitude that the law will contribute to changing.

It resonates with me because I used to think the same way until I started cycling myself when I got a whole new perspective.
I used to be frustrated by not being able to hit the speed limit and had the need to pass immediately without braking. In fact I still catch myself doing the same with cars on the motorway (60kph on off ramps!) but I take a breath and just put it into perspective. Things you can control vs things you can't ;)
Since cycling I've realised that there are plenty of hazards in front of you to worry about and checking over your shoulder requires a major concentration break on what is in front of you.
Now when approaching cyclists I ease off 10-20k and don't usually have to brake if anticipated well, then make sure there is room to pass, or wait the required seconds until there is room.
Most often there is either already room in the lane, a median strip, a gap in the second lane, no cars in the opposite direction lane, the cyclist has room to move left after rounding parked cars, or we actually catch up to the next intersection at 30kph and they filter off to the front of the queue or make a turn.
An easy thing to forget is that a bicycle is going much faster than a pedestrian, usually 20-35k depending on conditions.
I know I know, "YOUR roads aren't like that and you'd never be able to pass!" YES plenty of roads need better design, but seriously, how do you survive now, even without this law? They need better design whether this buffer zone law is passed or not. If it is (or isn't) you will still encounter the same Cyclists on the same roads but you might just be a little more aware to not go too close to them. Those that are more reckless than you and actually clip someone won't have any excuse. 

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  Reply # 1381438 7-Sep-2015 22:17
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groynk, that is the most cogent answer to date...

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  Reply # 1381576 8-Sep-2015 09:52
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Lias: PS: I also lane split and lane filter :-P

I've never ridden a motorcycle in my life, and this is way off topic (sorry), but can someone who is a motorcyclist explain the law/rules around lane splitting?  I remember reading some stuff on it several years ago, but I looked for it recently and couldn't find anything.

Imagine there are two lanes of traffic travelling in the same direction, cars alongside each other in both lanes, and a motorcyclist wants to ride between the two cars.  The motorcyclist is supposed to be on the right side of the left lane, not on the left side of the right lane.  Is this correct?  It would make sense, as cars are supposed to drive to the left of their lane so there should be no room for a motorcyclist to be in the same lane as a car, but on the car's left.

The reason I ask is because I do see a lot of drivers who seem to prefer being on the right side of their lane (my wife is one, often driving on the rumble strip on the right of the right lane, which is what started this "discussion" [read: "argument"] in the first place).  So now imagine my wife and another driver like her, alongside each other and both towards the right of their lanes.  There is no room for the motorcyclist on the right side of the left lane, but there is now room on the left of the right lane.  But if the motorcyclist uses this room to lane split, they're doing it wrong - bad habits by car drivers resulting in incorrect riding by motorcyclists.  But if there's no room in the left lane (a car is too far to the right, or perhaps just it's a wide vehicle like a bus) then the motorcyclist shouldn't lane split, right?  They should wait until there's a gap in the right lane, then move into that lane (not alongside another vehicle) and overtake like a car would have do.  Is this still correct?

And finally, is there a speed limit for lane splitting?  I seem to remember some vague wording like "moderate speed", but what does that mean?  In nose-to-tail traffic travelling at 20kph in a 100 zone, perhaps it's OK.  But when traffic is travelling at 80 in the same 100 zone, is lane splitting still OK?

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  Reply # 1381579 8-Sep-2015 09:56
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andrew027:
Lias: PS: I also lane split and lane filter :-P

I've never ridden a motorcycle in my life, and this is way off topic (sorry), but can someone who is a motorcyclist explain the law/rules around lane splitting?  I remember reading some stuff on it several years ago, but I looked for it recently and couldn't find anything.

Imagine there are two lanes of traffic travelling in the same direction, cars alongside each other in both lanes, and a motorcyclist wants to ride between the two cars.  The motorcyclist is supposed to be on the right side of the left lane, not on the left side of the right lane.  Is this correct?  It would make sense, as cars are supposed to drive to the left of their lane so there should be no room for a motorcyclist to be in the same lane as a car, but on the car's left.

The reason I ask is because I do see a lot of drivers who seem to prefer being on the right side of their lane (my wife is one, often driving on the rumble strip on the right of the right lane, which is what started this "discussion" [read: "argument"] in the first place).  So now imagine my wife and another driver like her, alongside each other and both towards the right of their lanes.  There is no room for the motorcyclist on the right of the left lane, but there is now room on the left of the right lane.  But if the motorcyclist uses this room to lane split, they're doing it wrong - bad habits by car drivers resulting in incorrect riding by motorcyclists.  But if there's no room in the left lane (a car is too far to the right, or perhaps just it's a wide vehicle like a bus) then the motorcyclist shouldn't lane split, right?  They should wait until there's a gap in the right lane, then move into that lane (not alongside another vehicle) and overtake like a car would have do.  Is this still correct?

And finally, is there a speed limit for lane splitting?  I seem to remember some vague wording like "moderate speed", but what does that mean?  In nose-to-tail traffic travelling at 20kph in a 100 zone, perhaps it's OK.  But when traffic is travelling at 80 in the same 100 zone, is lane splitting still OK?


very simple. You may not pass moving traffic on the left unless you are in a separate lane.

so if you pass between two moving cars and any part of your bike is in the same lane as the car on your right, you are breaking the law.

The only rule about speed is that this stuff doesn't apply to stationary traffic




2.8Passing on left

 

     

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    (1) A driver must not pass or attempt to pass on the left of another vehicle moving in the same direction except in accordance with this clause.

     

     

     

    (2) In any case in which the movement referred to subclause (1) may be made,—

     

       

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      (a) the 2 vehicles must be in different lanes; or

       

       

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      (b) the overtaken vehicle must be stationary or its driver must have given or be giving the prescribed signal of that driver's intention to turn right; or

       

       

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      (c) if the overtaken vehicle is a light rail vehicle moving in the same direction, the light rail vehicle must not be—

       

         

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        (i) signalling an intention to turn left or to stop; or

         

         

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        (ii) stationary for the purposes of allowing passengers to alight or board.

         

     

     

    (3) If the roadway is marked in lanes, the driver may make the movement referred in subclause (1) only if the driver's vehicle does not encroach on a lane that is unavailable to a driver.

     

     





Matthew


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  Reply # 1381588 8-Sep-2015 10:05
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I agree with the space idea but there needs to be respect for others from both camps. In the weekend while driving out to the Airport(Wellington) we got behind a cyclist in Vivian street, he went the whole way along Vivian in the center of the road and did the same up Kent Terrace, that sort of stuff needs to stop.
Also the road from the Hutt Valley to Wellington has a cycle lane yet cyclists do not use it and I have often encountered groups of riders 2 and 3 abreast riding on the highway. If this law is enforced then the use of cycle lanes where provided should be compulsory.

As an ex cyclist I know how dangerous it is out there but it is still a hell of a lot easier to get a half meter wide cycle out of the way than it is to move a car or a truck




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  Reply # 1381637 8-Sep-2015 10:45
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So you can overtake on the left at a passing lane?  I've seen it done and always wondered.




Mike

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