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1493 posts

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  # 1387934 15-Sep-2015 15:44
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surfisup1000:
Gilco2: I feel they are dangerous.  Here our new Tauranga Eastern Link have them virtually the whole 22km.  Making a whole new road like this the extra cost of concrete barrier would have been negligible.   I know its not often for crashes with motorcycles but the extra cost worth it if it saves just 1 motorcyclist from being virtually cut in half by wire rope


Negligible?  How much? 


Well I guess a bag of concrete, 20 bags of sand and some rebar might make up one of those concerete barriers (they are what 2m long ?)
The wire barriers are 4 strand galvanised cables (and there are 3 of those cables along the length, strung between 3 galvanised posts which are set in concrete each (3 posts for every 2m sound right?) then the cables need to be tightened to 25kn and kept at that tension for their life time.

Maintenance for a concrete barrier is mostly just to repaint them if they get graffiti'd and maybe to move them back into place if something shunts into them, lifespan is probably going to be a century (rough guess going by the anti-tank defences still on British/French beaches).
Maintenance for the wire barrier would be to keep them tight and if they rust to replace them .. if a car goes into them you have to replace all the posts in the immediate impact area and for probably 50m plus either side of the impact area and possible replace the cable as well if it got over stretched.


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  # 1387944 15-Sep-2015 15:53
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I seem to recall reading many years ago a complaint from a motorcycle group in the UK where the median barriers are usually solid Armco barrier that if they came off and slid, they would connect with the uprights which are visible below the lower edge of the barrier panel in a gap.

From their pov, no barrier that did not extent down to meet the road surface was good enough.





 
 
 
 


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  # 1387946 15-Sep-2015 15:55
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Mark:
surfisup1000:
Gilco2: I feel they are dangerous.  Here our new Tauranga Eastern Link have them virtually the whole 22km.  Making a whole new road like this the extra cost of concrete barrier would have been negligible.   I know its not often for crashes with motorcycles but the extra cost worth it if it saves just 1 motorcyclist from being virtually cut in half by wire rope


Negligible?  How much? 


Well I guess a bag of concrete, 20 bags of sand and some rebar might make up one of those concerete barriers (they are what 2m long ?)
The wire barriers are 4 strand galvanised cables (and there are 3 of those cables along the length, strung between 3 galvanised posts which are set in concrete each (3 posts for every 2m sound right?) then the cables need to be tightened to 25kn and kept at that tension for their life time.

Maintenance for a concrete barrier is mostly just to repaint them if they get graffiti'd and maybe to move them back into place if something shunts into them, lifespan is probably going to be a century (rough guess going by the anti-tank defences still on British/French beaches).
Maintenance for the wire barrier would be to keep them tight and if they rust to replace them .. if a car goes into them you have to replace all the posts in the immediate impact area and for probably 50m plus either side of the impact area and possible replace the cable as well if it got over stretched.

this. and yes the wire rope will rust and have to be replaced often. Salt air will corrode it where concrete barriers are maintenance free as such. If there was a major smash that demolished the concrete barrier then just that one or 2 need to be replaced.




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  # 1387948 15-Sep-2015 15:57
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Regardless what a motorcyclist hits it's not nice ... but the wire and post barriers don't exactly improve chances.

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  # 1387950 15-Sep-2015 16:00
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Mark:
surfisup1000:
Gilco2: I feel they are dangerous.  Here our new Tauranga Eastern Link have them virtually the whole 22km.  Making a whole new road like this the extra cost of concrete barrier would have been negligible.   I know its not often for crashes with motorcycles but the extra cost worth it if it saves just 1 motorcyclist from being virtually cut in half by wire rope


Negligible?  How much? 


Well I guess a bag of concrete, 20 bags of sand and some rebar might make up one of those concerete barriers (they are what 2m long ?)
The wire barriers are 4 strand galvanised cables (and there are 3 of those cables along the length, strung between 3 galvanised posts which are set in concrete each (3 posts for every 2m sound right?) then the cables need to be tightened to 25kn and kept at that tension for their life time.

Maintenance for a concrete barrier is mostly just to repaint them if they get graffiti'd and maybe to move them back into place if something shunts into them, lifespan is probably going to be a century (rough guess going by the anti-tank defences still on British/French beaches).
Maintenance for the wire barrier would be to keep them tight and if they rust to replace them .. if a car goes into them you have to replace all the posts in the immediate impact area and for probably 50m plus either side of the impact area and possible replace the cable as well if it got over stretched.



Given money is a scarce resource is it better to make all barriers concrete but have fewer of them? Or is it better to use wire as they might be 95% as good (or whatever) and you can construct more due to the lower cost? 

 

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  # 1387951 15-Sep-2015 16:02
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Mark:

Regardless what a motorcyclist hits it's not nice ... but the wire and post barriers don't exactly improve chances.


Ouch, nice simulation. 



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  # 1387965 15-Sep-2015 16:38
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http://trafinz.org.nz/workspace/downloads/raphael-grzebieta-2-524dfcb668f97.pdf

Cheese-cutter effect is a long since debunked myth.  Wire rope barriers may not be appropriate in all cases, but generally have a higher survivability rate and lower cost = value for taxpayers buck.    

"Installing roadside and median barriers – particularly wire-rope barriers - has a beneficial effect of around 50 to 60% in terms of reducing motorcycle casualties"





NZ has also adopted international practice and any new wire rope barriers must be 4x wire type.




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  # 1388032 15-Sep-2015 17:10
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Don't the stats speak for themselves? 29 serious injuries or deaths in the 10 years before they were installed and zero in the 10 years after. 

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  # 1388079 15-Sep-2015 18:34
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That study didnt prove wire rope barriers were safe, it just proved that wire rope or steel "armco" barriers are equally fatal to motorcyclists, and that only solid concrete is the safe option for motorcyclists.

They should be outlawed, concrete should be the only acceptable option and every motorcycle fatality involving steel or wire rope barriers should result in a manslaughter prosecution against NZTA until they get it through their thick heads.











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  # 1388155 15-Sep-2015 20:11
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throbb: Don't the stats speak for themselves? 29 serious injuries or deaths in the 10 years before they were installed and zero in the 10 years after. 


Where are those stats from ?  And kind of forgets the poor dude who got killed on a wire barrier in 2007.



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  # 1388183 15-Sep-2015 20:36
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scuwp: http://trafinz.org.nz/workspace/downloads/raphael-grzebieta-2-524dfcb668f97.pdf

Cheese-cutter effect is a long since debunked myth.  Wire rope barriers may not be appropriate in all cases, but generally have a higher survivability rate and lower cost = value for taxpayers buck.    

"Installing roadside and median barriers – particularly wire-rope barriers - has a beneficial effect of around 50 to 60% in terms of reducing motorcycle casualties"

NZ has also adopted international practice and any new wire rope barriers must be 4x wire type.


I've had a read through the document and I can;t for the life of me see where they work out that finding of "Installing roadside and median barriers – particularly wire-rope barriers - has a beneficial effect of around 50 to 60% in terms of reducing motorcycle casualties" 

And did you see the simulation pictures in the document of what happens to a body sliding into the barrier posts ?  The thing with the wire barriers is that a motorcyclists arms and legs go through the gaps in the posts AND between the wire, then things get all tangled up and ripped off, dislocated and generally mangled.

The report claims "Cheese cutter effect is a Myth that needs to be strongly rebutted", but doesn't give reasons as to why when the simulated pictures show a poor dummy being mangled in the barrier posts!

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  # 1388186 15-Sep-2015 20:49
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MikeB4: A barrier is way better than no barrier and I guess the solid ones are better, however cars have gone over the concrete barrier on the Wellington urban motorway. They are currently removing the best barrier(sand filled steel) on the motorway to make room for new lanes. Given how narrow the new lanes will be the replacement barrier will get a lot of work.


When the changes are complete the lane width will be 3.5m which is exactly what it is now (and what is legally required for a road with a 90km or 100km/h speed limit). Current temporary lane width is 3.25m hence the reduction to a 70km/h speed limit to comply with NZTA regulations.



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  # 1388193 15-Sep-2015 21:00
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Mark:
scuwp: http://trafinz.org.nz/workspace/downloads/raphael-grzebieta-2-524dfcb668f97.pdf

Cheese-cutter effect is a long since debunked myth.  Wire rope barriers may not be appropriate in all cases, but generally have a higher survivability rate and lower cost = value for taxpayers buck.    

"Installing roadside and median barriers – particularly wire-rope barriers - has a beneficial effect of around 50 to 60% in terms of reducing motorcycle casualties"

NZ has also adopted international practice and any new wire rope barriers must be 4x wire type.


I've had a read through the document and I can;t for the life of me see where they work out that finding of "Installing roadside and median barriers – particularly wire-rope barriers - has a beneficial effect of around 50 to 60% in terms of reducing motorcycle casualties" 

And did you see the simulation pictures in the document of what happens to a body sliding into the barrier posts ?  The thing with the wire barriers is that a motorcyclists arms and legs go through the gaps in the posts AND between the wire, then things get all tangled up and ripped off, dislocated and generally mangled.

The report claims "Cheese cutter effect is a Myth that needs to be strongly rebutted", but doesn't give reasons as to why when the simulated pictures show a poor dummy being mangled in the barrier posts!


It was only a presentation summary.  There is a plethora of studies around the world on crash barriers.  It is important to differentiate between the speculative hype and facts, and the facts do not support the 'cheese-cutter' outcomes claimed by the motorcycle lobby.  There is also a cost involved.  If every road in NZ was 'perfect' the country would be broke.  

If you want more reasoning this explains in quite well http://www.reaaa.co.nz/publication/cheesecutters-eggslicers-and-motorcycles-by-nicholas-rodger-transit-nz/wppa_open/

I have picked up more dead bodies from the side of the road that I care to remember.  I am also a lifetime motorcyclist. I still believe the wire rope barriers have more positives than negatives.        




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  # 1388274 15-Sep-2015 22:29
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At the end of the day, riding a motorcycle is more dangerous if you are involved in an accident.

You have the choice not to ride one and that choice was made for me when I was placed on Warfarin therapy for the rest of my life. I'm not banned from riding one (except by SWMBO!) but having an accident would potentially more life threatening as I could bleed to death long before help arrived.

It's a shame there is not a thin barrier that can be used in places like the centre line of the Rimutaka Hill rd as the number of motorcyclists I encounter on that road who have a death wish is terrifying.





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  # 1388293 15-Sep-2015 23:17
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Honestly, with the number of people killed an injured on the Coast Road alongside Pukerua Bay, there has to be SOME form of barrier...the quickest and cheapest approach at the time was to do a wire barrier, and it's saved many lives, and prevented even more injuries. 

Having seen the results of a head on collision on that very road in 1998, I can honestly say that even though I'm not convinced that they're the best solution, a wire rope barrier is DEFINITELY better than no barrier at all. 

Of course, for that piece of road in particular, the ultimate best solution is called Transmission Gully. 

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