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  Reply # 1403090 9-Oct-2015 14:46
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MikeB4: Time will tell


Hopefully.

VW seem to be having a go at splitting the issue between US and EU, when it's clear that they did exactly the same trick with models sold in both markets.

For the 2009-14 models, it looks like there's no hope of getting them to meet EPA standards without major modification.  
But they seem to be hoping to get away with software modification to get the other 11 million to meet Euro 5 standards (when higher NOx levels were allowed than EPA, by a factor of about 5).  However, if that's possible by turning off the emissions defeat program, it kind of begs the question as to why it was ever needed in the first place for those markets, and doesn't address compensation for owners who will probably end up with lower performance, higher fuel consumption, and higher maintenance costs.
If they are made to run the NOx reduction rich mode cycles more frequently to "refresh" the NOx trap converter so it actually works, then it's inevitable that the DPF will clog more frequently as there will be more soot, presumably the first catalytic converter will run hotter, lifespan of the catalytic converters will be reduced - and these are very expensive parts for the owner to replace.
Then, even if they can get them to pass Euro 5, they've drawn attention to the whole other dirty trick of legally permissible "cycle beating" for which they'll probably have a bit of a blind eye from the European regulators who are arguably equally culpable, and I expect a bit of a lackluster effort from German government who'll be rather concerned about the impact on jobs and the economy.  It isn't just VW who want this to be put to bed with minimal fuss.

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  Reply # 1403112 9-Oct-2015 15:18
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Fred99:


“This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason,” Michael Horn, VW’s U.S. chief, told a House subcommittee hearing. “To my understanding, this was not a corporate decision. This was something individuals did.”

link







The buck stops with the CEO, as they delegate jobs to their underlings. So they can't just blame other people IMO.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1403192 9-Oct-2015 18:48
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MikeB4: Time will tell


They'll survive, but the brand is totally screwed now. And will remain so for a very long time.

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  Reply # 1403207 9-Oct-2015 19:01
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dafman: .... but the brand is totally screwed now. And will remain so for a very long time.


I don't think so. It wouldn't stop me buying a VW and those I know that own them are happy with them. Mind you I wouldn't  buy a diesel anyway.




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  Reply # 1403218 9-Oct-2015 19:26
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Technofreak:
dafman: .... but the brand is totally screwed now. And will remain so for a very long time.


I don't think so. It wouldn't stop me buying a VW and those I know that own them are happy with them. Mind you I wouldn't  buy a diesel anyway.


My first car, many years ago, was a 1976 1.1 lt Golf. It was a three door, a rarity in NZ, but I was rapt as it was the same body as a GTI. And I spec'ed it up on the body to look like a GTI. I loved that car and always dreamed of actually owing a genuine GTI later in life.

Years later, our last purchase, after an extensive test drive process, came down to Tiguan or Outback. It was a close call, the Outback just won out, but VW would definitely be on the shortlist for our next car.

Not now. VW is now off our list for ever. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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  Reply # 1403250 9-Oct-2015 20:57
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MikeB4:
Fred99:
MikeB4: The only "dirty" diesels I seem to encounter are Nissan, Isuzu, Mitsubishi and the entire Wellington region diesel bus stock.


Old VW, Mercedes diesels were just as bad, new Japanese diesels are just as good.
That for the stuff you can see (black smoke).
The invisible stuff being spewed out matters too.


Yep aware of that, I have owned numerous diesel 4WD's.

I should add the majority on NZ roads its not the manufacturers fault but woeful maintenance by owners


Or alternatively the govt fault for not having better emissions standards i.e. making particulate filters mandatory [e.g. Euro V] sooner, rather than after 2013 and 2014 for new heavy and light diesel vehicles respectively



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  Reply # 1403263 9-Oct-2015 21:34
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dafman:
Technofreak:
dafman: .... but the brand is totally screwed now. And will remain so for a very long time.


I don't think so. It wouldn't stop me buying a VW and those I know that own them are happy with them. Mind you I wouldn't  buy a diesel anyway.


My first car, many years ago, was a 1976 1.1 lt Golf. It was a three door, a rarity in NZ, but I was rapt as it was the same body as a GTI. And I spec'ed it up on the body to look like a GTI. I loved that car and always dreamed of actually owing a genuine GTI later in life.

Years later, our last purchase, after an extensive test drive process, came down to Tiguan or Outback. It was a close call, the Outback just won out, but VW would definitely be on the shortlist for our next car.

Not now. VW is now off our list for ever. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.


I wouldn't buy one either now. It was in my Shortlist of brands but not anymore. But this has basically devalued them, and up they do fold, the value will be even less , so this will likely tarnish their rep for many years. Their only saving grace maybe if other brands are proven to be doing the same thing.

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  Reply # 1403267 9-Oct-2015 21:54
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My wife purchased a Skoda two weeks ago and I will replace my Nissan with a Skoda when due, this problem has no effect on us and does not alter the quality and performance of the vehicles we have and will have.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1403276 9-Oct-2015 22:22
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I have a VW Golf Diesel with the model engine before the ones in question, so am likely WELL over any emissions levels which are now required in the EU. This 'scandal' isn't going to stop me buying another VW, they are great cars, nor will it make me press that accelerator any less.

I think I agreed with Mike Hosking for the first time this week when he wrote in the Herald that VW/Audi can't be the only engine manufacturer which didn't meet the emissions levels required at the time, others are guilty too for sure! The others just haven't been found out yet.

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  Reply # 1403308 10-Oct-2015 04:39
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mattwnz: I wouldn't buy one either now. It was in my Shortlist of brands but not anymore. But this has basically devalued them, and up they do fold, the value will be even less , so this will likely tarnish their rep for many years. Their only saving grace maybe if other brands are proven to be doing the same thing.


I think you'll find other brands have been proven to be gaming the system one way or another.

Take a look here, http://www.carscoops.com/2015/09/diesel-bmw-mercedes-opel-psa-cars.html 

This quote is from that article; These results lead T&E and ICCT to believe that more automakers are using “defeat devices”.

“All measured data suggests that this is not a VW-specific issue,” ICCT’s Europe Managing director Peter Mock told  Auto Bild.




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  Reply # 1403358 10-Oct-2015 10:20
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insane: I have a VW Golf Diesel with the model engine before the ones in question, so am likely WELL over any emissions levels which are now required in the EU. This 'scandal' isn't going to stop me buying another VW, they are great cars, nor will it make me press that accelerator any less.

I think I agreed with Mike Hosking for the first time this week when he wrote in the Herald that VW/Audi can't be the only engine manufacturer which didn't meet the emissions levels required at the time, others are guilty too for sure! The others just haven't been found out yet.


For me, it's nothing to do with the emissions, it's simply their ethics. I'm not going to give $40k+ to a company that deliberately sets out to deceive it's customers.



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  Reply # 1403383 10-Oct-2015 10:53
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Defending VW on the basis that "they all do it" doesn't stack up as a defense.  The evidence about emissions under real-life emissions of other cars/brands is subject to the same kind of problems as the "cycle-beating" used in dyno tests.  It would be very easy to drive a car on a road test to maximise emissions, measure it with PEMS, and write an article alleging that - perhaps -"they all do it'.
There's no proof that "they all do it", the denials have been so emphatic from BMW etc that the consequences of that being exposed later as a lie would be disastrous.  I tend to believe BMW.
But the whole debacle in how European emission standards are tested and applied needs to be sorted.  That's the only favour VW may have done - drawn attention to a system which is corrupt - and needs to be fixed.  

California has incentives/penalties for auto makers meeting emissions targets. VW didn't just cheat customers, they cheated government.

As for Hosking:  "If there's an upside to VW's problems, it's that no one has been hurt or killed, no one was ever in danger." 
That's moronic - true to form.  Pollution from motor vehicles does kill.  Measures taken to improve air quality do work.  



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  Reply # 1403389 10-Oct-2015 11:05
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Fred99: Defending VW on the basis that "they all do it" doesn't stack up as a defense.  The evidence about emissions under real-life emissions of other cars/brands is subject to the same kind of problems as the "cycle-beating" used in dyno tests.  It would be very easy to drive a car on a road test to maximise emissions, measure it with PEMS, and write an article alleging that - perhaps -"they all do it'.
There's no proof that "they all do it", the denials have been so emphatic from BMW etc that the consequences of that being exposed later as a lie would be disastrous.  I tend to believe BMW.
But the whole debacle in how European emission standards are tested and applied needs to be sorted.  That's the only favour VW may have done - drawn attention to a system which is corrupt - and needs to be fixed.  

California has incentives/penalties for auto makers meeting emissions targets. VW didn't just cheat customers, they cheated government.

As for Hosking:  "If there's an upside to VW's problems, it's that no one has been hurt or killed, no one was ever in danger." 
That's moronic - true to form.  Pollution from motor vehicles does kill.  Measures taken to improve air quality do work.  



Depending on what you perceive the system wasn't corrupt, just simply open to cheating without enough checks

The upside of all this is hopefully greater transparency on not just vehicle industry cheating [which occurs where ever there is big money] but emissions too

One would be naive to think that auto industry manipulation/gaming call it what you will is restricted to diesel, I suspect and will myself assume it is also petrol and more

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  Reply # 1403420 10-Oct-2015 11:29
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xlinknz: Depending on what you perceive the system wasn't corrupt, just simply open to cheating without enough checks

The upside of all this is hopefully greater transparency on not just vehicle industry cheating [which occurs where ever there is big money] but emissions too

One would be naive to think that auto industry manipulation/gaming call it what you will is restricted to diesel, I suspect and will myself assume it is also petrol and more

Anyone who gets their ECU 'chipped' or has modified software installed is also gaming the system and likely causing greater emissions than their vehicle would have produced at the factory.  In order to totally clamp down on this way of evading the rules, Govt. would need to insist on some sort of ECU verification process during a WOF.  Can anyone really see that happening, especially in country garages that don't even have a dyno or any electronic testing gear at all, like my local mechanic?

VW have already written me a letter stating that "VW in Germany is working at full speed on a technical solution so that this issue can be fixed".  No thanks Tom, I will leave my ECU as is.  If some kind of forced recall process is put in place, it's easy enough to get the ECU modified afterwards, so back to square one...





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  Reply # 1403473 10-Oct-2015 13:47
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dafman: For me, it's nothing to do with the emissions, it's simply their ethics. I'm not going to give $40k+ to a company that deliberately sets out to deceive it's customers.


But you're quite happy to give $40K plus to another manufacturer who may well be deceiving their customers but haven't yet been caught?

Two wrongs don't make a right, i.e. just because others are doing it doesn't make what VW did any better but to crucify VW on their own is just being naive.




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