Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | ... | 13

gzt

9259 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1318


  Reply # 1390503 20-Sep-2015 02:37
Send private message

I wonder how secondhand buyers are treated in settlements like these. I'm aware manufacturer will fox the defect but is there any ability for secondhand buyer to join class action. All US law stuff.



5243 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2478


  Reply # 1390562 20-Sep-2015 11:06
Send private message

pdath: VW are definitely in the gun. To get the certificate before being allowed to sell a vehicle they have to have the EPA test done and declare any aspect of the vehicle which could affect the test results. They also have to make a declaration that the vehicle contains no systems that will try and alter the results.

They are completely screwed. Maximum fine is 18 billion. They are also not allowed to sell any new model diesels until the issue is resolved. They are also required to make every existing vehicle sold compliant. To make them compliant they will have to rob the vehicles of their preformance.

Would you want to take your vehicle on knowing it will come out performing worse?


That hit in performance (economy and power) with the anti-pollution defeat in the ECU turned off will be interesting.  With turbo-diesel, then (apart from exhaust post-treatment), NOx production is influenced by combustion temperatures.  The obvious ways to reduce combusion temperatures is to increase EGR (that sounds counter-intuitive, but it's how EGR works), reduce boost (easy these days with ECU controlled variable-vane turbo), as well as adjusting fuel injection mapping.  But I think these affected models also have urea injection / selective catalytic conversion (SCR) systems to reduce NOx.  
EPA should next look at Mercedes Benz (if they're selling diesel "BlueTEC" in the US) and BMW.  Perhaps MB and BMW are making high-performance diesels with SCR which do comply with EPA emissions - without using similar tricks to what VW have been using.  

I was looking at some figures for roadside NOx measurements.  There's been a significant slow reduction in those measurements in European cities.  Cars are only part of the problem, and not all cars are diesel.  Petrol cars NOx emissions have dropped absolutely massively since the 1980s - I guess it's complex to determine accurately, but the reduction in NOx from petrol engine cars probably accounts for most of the overall drop.  There's other data suggesting that actual NOx from diesels has been increasing despite Euro emissions regulations tightening up.  This may not be a VW USA only issue.

I don't trust that the Euro emissions regulations are as good as the US.  I'm deeply suspicious that there's collusion between the auto-makers and the regulators, there's too much money at stake.  

 
 
 
 


609 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 241

Subscriber

  Reply # 1390565 20-Sep-2015 11:11
Send private message

gzt: I wonder how secondhand buyers are treated in settlements like these. I'm aware manufacturer will fox the defect but is there any ability for secondhand buyer to join class action. All US law stuff.


I'm sure they will. Everyone loves a good free-for-all Class Action. Horrible mess for VW.

Some years ago we were importing used US market vehicles to Canada. We'd take them to a US dealership to complete or verify clearance of recalls before bringing them across the border.

We later recieved letters - at our Canadian address - from a US legal firm asking if we wished to join class action against the manufacturer. I'm pretty sure they even specified the VIN numbers of the affected vehicles.

We figured they'd found us through the manufacturers database. I'm guessing they'd been forced to pass on a list of owners to the class action lawyers..

3270 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 413


  Reply # 1390585 20-Sep-2015 13:04
One person supports this post
Send private message

gzt: At the end of the day no cleverer than a fridge manufacturer.


If they get away with it, then Life's Good.

2134 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 710

Subscriber

  Reply # 1390671 20-Sep-2015 17:26
Send private message

There will definitely be a big reduction in fuel economy due to having the emissions control systems constantly running. As lower combustion temperature means lower efficency. So more fuel needed for same power output. And lower exhaust temp means the particulate filter blocks up faster. Which means more active regeneration required. Which consists of injecting extra diesel on the exhaust stroke. Which instead of burning in the engine. It burns in the particulate filter to heat it enough to burn off the soot.

Hopefully this will teach the general public how stupid emissions controls are. As burning more fuel definitely doesn't help to reduce carbon emissions.





gzt

9259 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1318


  Reply # 1391252 21-Sep-2015 13:41
Send private message

Sam Morgan owns Volkswagens, not happy.

http://mobile.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.php?c_id=3&objectid=11516211

I assume he purchased new in NZ. Are NZ new Volkswagen even going to have this ECU program?



5243 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2478


  Reply # 1391359 21-Sep-2015 15:22
Send private message


"The EPA said it is looking to see if other automakers are breaking the rules with diesel vehicles.

California and U.S. agencies “have begun procuring in-use diesel vehicles produced by other manufacturers to screen the vehicles for possible defeat devices. Moving forward we will be reviewing our compliance protocols and introducing ways in which we can effectively test not only for emissions performance but also for the potential presence of defeat devices,” EPA said in a statement to The Detroit News."






5243 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2478


  Reply # 1391372 21-Sep-2015 15:43
Send private message

IMO EPA should look at very hard at all FSI petrol engine cars. These also inherently produce high NOx levels, particularly when running in stratified injection mode (cruise and gentle acceleration), and for the same reason as diesels (high combustion temperatures and low fuel air ratio, where excess O2 + N2 form NOx)
In that case the second cat effectively "stores" NOx, as it can't catalytically reduce it when the injection is in lean stratified mode - as there's excess O2 in the exhaust gases.
The NOx sensor measures when saturation of the NOx storage catalyst is achieved, then cycles the engine map to "lambda one" (stoichiometric) or higher for a few seconds - injecting more fuel.
Thus O2 levels in the exhaust reduce, the NOx storage catalyst is "refreshed", and the injection reverts to lean stratified injection mode.  This all happens on a continuous cycle without anything noticeable to the driver.

Why they might want to "cheat" on that isn't because of performance hit, but fuel economy (and thus CO2 emissions), where the excess fuel used solely to "refresh" the NOx storage catalyst will reduce fuel economy - thus defeating it will improve economy.  If VW figured out how to detect an EPA cycle with diesel, then they can do exactly the same with FSI petrol.  Defeat FSI during a detected test cycle and exhaust NOx will be consistently low.


Mad Scientist
17740 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2178

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1391376 21-Sep-2015 15:50
Send private message

Will we see people returning their VW Audi Lambo and etc ? Note that would be funny!

1351 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 261


  Reply # 1391560 21-Sep-2015 21:41
One person supports this post
Send private message

Have the EPA people watched any diesel drag truck videos?



5243 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2478


  Reply # 1391573 21-Sep-2015 22:53
Send private message


EPA's letter to VAG has been made public.

an extract:




If that's all the "defeat programme" did, then perhaps they can be easily reset by software.  But if by design that's going to cause other problems (ie the catalytic converter system, DPF or engine itself can't handle homogeneous charge for the duration needed to keep NOx emissions below standards in normal driving) then this might indicate that every small VW diesel sold everywhere in the world emissions standards apply may use the same trick.
Apparently in one year and a recall, VW could not fix the problem.

The dirty rats.  Indeed they could do exactly exactly the same with all of their petrol FSI cars - basically every car now made by VAG.  I have been reading that  German authorities are now going to investigate cars made and sold over there.





5243 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2478


  Reply # 1391939 22-Sep-2015 14:24
Send private message

Here's some evidence that perhaps  VW are doing the same with petrol cars in Europe.

"Our test shows: Unfiltered direct injection engines are on the road many times dirtier than filtered diesel engines. In our opinion, violates EU law.

VW Golf 1.4 TSI meets Euro 6 standards in dyno emissions tests, but a complete fail when the test is switched to the "New European Driving Cycle" road simulation test while still monitoring emissions.

This looks pretty bad to me - a Euro 6 VW 1.4 TSI getting thoroughly dorked for actual emissions on highway test cycle, compared with an old Euro 5 compliant Hyundai:


Those ultra-fine particulates are very nasty indeed.  Older-style port or throttle body injected petrol engines hardly produce any at all unless they're seriously faulty.

The Euro 7 standard coming later in the decade is supposed to be based on new harmonised test procedures.   Two things seem obvious, it seems to use cycles which are very easy to detect - thus beat, and the USA are not part of the deal.

TUV Nord also reported the issue with direct injection petrol engines.  I've mentioned it here before.

The response from the German authorities has been... basically nothing.

Perhaps VW and the German Minister for the Environment should be asked a riddle question:
"What has it got in it's pocketses?"  I'm deeply suspicious that the answer is "each others handses".




Mad Scientist
17740 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2178

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1391990 22-Sep-2015 15:26
Send private message

this is an amazing scandal!

i read somewhere the actual emission generated is about up to 40X the rated

40X !!!



5243 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2478


  Reply # 1392099 22-Sep-2015 17:21
Send private message

VW tried to position themselves with "clean diesel" in the US with TV ads like the one below.



So ironic is the situation, you could hardly make it up.

2073 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 961

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1392101 22-Sep-2015 17:33
Send private message

How could they be so stupid? Seriously, what could the execs have possibly been thinking. With the number of people required internally to pull this off, it was never an issue of if, but when the news got out!



1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | ... | 13
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

New Zealand hits peak broadband data
Posted 18-Jan-2018 12:21


Amazon Echo devices coming to New Zealand early February 2018
Posted 18-Jan-2018 10:53


$3.74 million for new electric vehicles in New Zealand
Posted 17-Jan-2018 11:27


Nova 2i: Value, not excitement from Huawei
Posted 17-Jan-2018 09:02


Less news in Facebook News Feed revamp
Posted 15-Jan-2018 13:15


Australian Government contract awarded to Datacom Connect
Posted 11-Jan-2018 08:37


Why New Zealand needs a chief technology officer
Posted 6-Jan-2018 13:59


Amazon release Silk Browser and Firefox for Fire TV
Posted 21-Dec-2017 13:42


New Chief Technology Officer role created
Posted 19-Dec-2017 22:18


All I want for Christmas is a new EV
Posted 19-Dec-2017 19:54


How clever is this: AI will create 2.3 million jobs by 2020
Posted 19-Dec-2017 19:52


NOW to deploy SD-WAN to regional councils
Posted 19-Dec-2017 19:46


Mobile market competition issues ComCom should watch
Posted 18-Dec-2017 10:52


New Zealand government to create digital advisory group
Posted 16-Dec-2017 08:47


Australia datum changes means whole country moving 1.8 metres north-east
Posted 16-Dec-2017 08:39



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.